Hats Off to the Royal Navy

[PangurBan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Thanks for the compliment to our Services DH...
To be honest if the USA was anywhere near the UK in courtesy and cheerfullness I would likely take on more jobs to and from the US.. however.. as it is right now I honestly would rather knock back a 5-10K job than deal with that ****.. I don't need it.
I think that the USA is still too young a country.. and the borders are where its shows most clearly... it needs to mature a few hundred more years more to gain the confidence to relax..

As Oscar Wilde once remarked:"The most cherished American myth is the youth of their country. They have been peddling it for 300 years" Biggergrin.


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[Captain Bill 3]

That last entry was right on the ball in one word TENSE . At 72, a former coastie who had boarding officer duty in FL, MD, AK, Vietnam, boarding duty is a very serious business without knowing what to expect, tense is the right word. A 100 Ton licence holder, commercial 65' captain crew boat operator, lifelong mechanic of sail and power vessels, Towboat owner, deliverer of power and sail vessels who has been boarded only several times, but always with the utmost curtesy. It helps that the operator has every thing in order and is relaxed. Keep in mind all coasties are volunteers and most like boats and the water. However sometimes they are put in less than pleasent duties and for the most part are very young and may be scared.

[denverd0n]

Of course, you have to consider the fact that the United States has several orders of magnitude more drug smuggling happening--most especially around the southern borders, where much of the boating also happens--than either the UK or Canada. And, as pointed out, the USCG is a law-enforcement organization. That means that there is always the possibility that the next boarding is going to turn into a shoot-out with well-armed criminals.

Of course, that's no excuse for any sort of unprofessional behavior (and personally, I have never seen any sort of unprofessional behavior), but it could certainly explain a bit of the tenseness.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill 3

That last entry was right on the ball in one word TENSE . At 72, a former coastie who had boarding officer duty in FL, MD, AK, Vietnam, boarding duty is a very serious business without knowing what to expect, tense is the right word. A 100 Ton licence holder, commercial 65' captain crew boat operator, lifelong mechanic of sail and power vessels, Towboat owner, deliverer of power and sail vessels who has been boarded only several times, but always with the utmost curtesy. It helps that the operator has every thing in order and is relaxed. Keep in mind all coasties are volunteers and most like boats and the water. However sometimes they are put in less than pleasent duties and for the most part are very young and may be scared.

I think that's a very good point. It's easy for people especially people from Europe where it's so safe, to not realise how violent the United States is. From the crime and murder perspective it can't even be considered a developed nation.

The only other developed country that comes close for murder rate is NORTHERN IRELAND, and even it is lower than the US. Us has a higher murder rate than Yemen, Turkey and until recently Syria. That's the country as a whole. Much of it- like Vermont is very safe. Which means the dangerous states are pretty dicey places. Florida, Louisiana, Georgia, your probably safer in most caribean capitals than the southern states.

That's why homeland security is jumpy, not only is there a threat of foreign terrorism, but there is also the much bigger threat that they will be murdered by one of their own citizens.



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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I think that's a very good point. It's easy for people especially people from Europe where it's so safe, to not realise how violent the United States is. From the crime and murder perspective it can't even be considered a developed nation.

The only other developed country that comes close for murder rate is NORTHERN IRELAND, and even it is lower than the US. Us has a higher murder rate than Yemen, Turkey and until recently Syria. That's the country as a whole. Much of it- like Vermont is very safe. Which means the dangerous states are pretty dicey places. Florida, Louisiana, Georgia, your probably safer in most caribean capitals than the southern states.

That's why homeland security is jumpy, not only is there a threat of foreign terrorism, but there is also the much bigger threat that they will be murdered by one of their own citizens.

A very good point, which is that CG "bedside manner" is just a reflection of the situation in the country as a whole. I think that's probably right.

I grew up in the U.S. and learned a certain code of behavior when dealing with LEO's -- demonstrate deference, and calm, and complete submissiveness, and do exactly what you're told without questioning anything. It helps a lot, of course, and not just in the U.S. -- the mentality of LEO's is fundamentally the same everywhere -- they don't want problems, and will make their initial judgement about whether they are going to have problems by the subject's manner and behavior. They want your behavior to say clearly "I am not a threat, and you are not going to have any kind of problem with me."

Fast forward to half a lifetime living in Europe -- why should I be presumed to be a threat at all? I'm a decent law-abiding person. Because in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe, you are much less presumed to be a threat, than in the U.S. That is probably a function of statistics -- as FamilyVan suggests -- as much as anything else. Which is little comfort when you are being eyed suspiciously by a nervous young Coastie, though, is it?

[Kenomac]

Yes, quite a difference. I vividly remember being detained, borded and inspected in San Pedro harbor, So Cal USCG along with the homeland security black outfit guys on that cold rainy day five years ago. No issues with the boat or the 12ga shotgun onboard, but it was intimidating standing out in the rain with my hands out of my pockets for an hour with a machine gun pointed at me. Yes, they were polite and I was cooperative, but who wouldn't be under those conditions.

Contrast that with Europe where my only contact with coast guard or customs has been the Spanish border/customs officers helping me come up with a working plan to overstay my tourist visa. Then assisting me with the paperwork.

[carstenb]

I haven't had any run-ins with any coast guards, but I have to say the US immigration authorities can be rude and totally unprofessional. They yell at people in line for literally no reason.

I got bumped to one side a couple of years ago entering the US due to an overstay of an expired visa (in 1972!). My wife was with me and she sat next to me.When I was called, she got up to come forward with me (there were no problems with her entry) the Immigration woman literally screamed:

"Not you! I didn't call you! Sit down! Don't you understand English!"

Now my wife is probably more fluent in English than the immigration officer, she speaks 4 languages fluently and 4-5 others on a conversational level, took her masters in english, so if the immigration woman wanted only me, she could have said so in a polite manner (I also speak fluent english and at one point years ago taught english writing and grammar at an American University).

Having said that - I also have had a good experience coming through St. Louis.

But the US Immigration authorities could send their people on a "Tact and Manners" course.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Yes, they were polite and I was cooperative, but who wouldn't be under those conditions.

Actually, you would probably be surprised at the number of people who get extremely belligerent in this kind of situation, and seem to deliberately try to make things as bad for themselves as they possibly can.

[europaflyer]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Actually, you would probably be surprised at the number of people who get extremely belligerent in this kind of situation, and seem to deliberately try to make things as bad for themselves as they possibly can.

Having a machine designed to kill you pointed at you by someone you don't know who is ordering you to do things you don't want to can have that effect... misguided adrenaline fueled self preservation I suppose.

FWIW, at least to an outsider the actions of a lot of US law enforcement agencies seem almost designed to antagonise, particularly with regard to waving guns around in seemingly fairly manageable situations. This is I think purely because we're used to dealing with police who operate in countries where firearm ownership is very limited, and who therefore don't have to deal with the same level of danger. Given the threat faced in the US it is perhaps more understandable. A lot of Americans seem very surprised that police in the UK aren't routinely armed - what if someone pulled a gun on them? The answer is of course that following the 1997 ban even the hardest criminals often don't have access to handguns. Things are a lot safer as a result...

Oh no, no, I don't want a gun thread...

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Having a machine designed to kill you pointed at you by someone you don't know who is ordering you to do things you don't want to can have that effect... misguided adrenaline fueled self preservation I suppose.

FWIW, at least to an outsider the actions of a lot of US law enforcement agencies seem almost designed to antagonise, particularly with regard to waving guns around in seemingly fairly manageable situations. This is I think purely because we're used to dealing with police who operate in countries where firearm ownership is very limited, and who therefore don't have to deal with the same level of danger. Given the threat faced in the US it is perhaps more understandable. A lot of Americans seem very surprised that police in the UK aren't routinely armed - what if someone pulled a gun on them? The answer is of course that following the 1997 ban even the hardest criminals often don't have access to handguns. Things are a lot safer as a result...

Oh no, no, I don't want a gun thread...

Hmm. I like the idea, but gun ownership is extremely common in Canada. No farm house would be without a rifle. I myself have 5- 3 12 gauges, .22 and a .50, but the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aren't exactly known internationally for being a bunch of trigger happy bullies.

I believe fire arms are fairly popular in Australia too. My understanding of Switzerland is nearly every house hold has an assault weapon. Switzerland has been respected for neutrality and aversion to resolving conflict through direct violence, Norwegians love their guns, but I sincerely doubt their law enforcement point them at whomever.

I don't think it can be the proliferation of firearms that are the problem. I think it's a culture of violence there that makes their LOE s so jumpy (ironically they are active participants in the culture of violence that makes their jobs dangerous).

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[europaflyer]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Hmm. I like the idea, but gun ownership is extremely common in Canada. No farm house would be without a rifle. I myself have 5- 3 12 gauges, .22 and a .50, but the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aren't exactly known internationally for being a bunch of trigger happy bullies.

I believe fire arms are fairly popular in Australia too. My understanding of Switzerland is nearly every house hold has an assault weapon. Switzerland has been respected for neutrality and aversion to resolving conflict through direct violence, Norwegians love their guns, but I sincerely doubt their law enforcement point them at whomever.

I don't think it can be the proliferation of firearms that are the problem. I think it's a culture of violence there that makes their LOE s so jumpy (ironically they are active participants in the culture of violence that makes their jobs dangerous).

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Culture of violence, well perhaps. I think that your post makes an important point though - although rifle/shotgun ownership is high in, for example, Canada and Switzerland, handgun ownership isn't nearly as widespread. I feel that this is really one of the major problems - it is very easy for a police officer to tell if someone is armed with a rifle or shotgun, but not a handgun. Handguns are designed to be portable and easily concealed, ie. to go somewhere and kill someone without being noticed first. This is not the case with a rifle. This is why I don't see self-defence as a legitimate reason to allow civilian handgun ownership - to a civilian, they are fundamentally offensive weapons. If I worked in law enforcement in a country where it was legal not just to own handguns but to actually carry the damn things around with you then I think I too would be a bit jumpy!

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Culture of violence, well perhaps. I think that your post makes an important point though - although rifle/shotgun ownership is high in, for example, Canada and Switzerland, handgun ownership isn't nearly as widespread. I feel that this is really one of the major problems - it is very easy for a police officer to tell if someone is armed with a rifle or shotgun, but not a handgun. Handguns are designed to be portable and easily concealed, ie. to go somewhere and kill someone without being noticed first. This is not the case with a rifle. This is why I don't see self-defence as a legitimate reason to allow civilian handgun ownership - to a civilian, they are fundamentally offensive weapons. If I worked in law enforcement in a country where it was legal not just to own handguns but to actually carry the damn things around with you then I think I too would be a bit jumpy!

Valid point. I can't argue against it. Conceiled weapons are undeniably more sinister than long guns intended for catching your lunch or protection from critters.

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[Scubacarole]

Had a wonderful experience from RN personnel in One of Caribbean Islands, maybe St Marten? Didn't have their currency at a local bar, didn't accept CC, my husband & I were about to leave when these generous sailors bought our drinks! Just blown away with the gesture & their friendliness. Truly class!


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[boatman61]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Culture of violence, well perhaps. I think that your post makes an important point though - although rifle/shotgun ownership is high in, for example, Canada and Switzerland, handgun ownership isn't nearly as widespread. I feel that this is really one of the major problems - it is very easy for a police officer to tell if someone is armed with a rifle or shotgun, but not a handgun. Handguns are designed to be portable and easily concealed, ie. to go somewhere and kill someone without being noticed first. This is not the case with a rifle. This is why I don't see self-defence as a legitimate reason to allow civilian handgun ownership - to a civilian, they are fundamentally offensive weapons. If I worked in law enforcement in a country where it was legal not just to own handguns but to actually carry the damn things around with you then I think I too would be a bit jumpy!

Its not the guns that are the problem.. its the culture and mentality of a nation thats resolved all its colonisation and civil/personal disputes with a bullet or 50 for the last 200+ years..
You want to see how the Brits do it... there's an excellent movie about an American student who's expelled from Havard and goes to London where he gets involved with the 'Westham Firm'...
Thats football.. and what you lot refer to as a gang..
Only they're not criminals in the sense you know gangs.. these guys just get together for matches and fight for fun and their team..

[rognvald]

I have never had personal contact with the Royal Navy, but several times with the USCG. Most Coasties are fairly young men who have been taught to do a job but perhaps not to differentiate generally among situations and types of people. Of the two times I have had contact with them (once a boarding and inspection at sea), they were curt, unfriendly, and made no attempt to lighten the situation with any courtesies or small talk. I understand that this is not their mission, however, some common manners and mutual respect would not compromise their job and would certainly make most who were boarded feel more comfortable--especially recreational sailors. Much has to do with the "American Personality" to which Boatman previosusly alluded and to which I would, in general, agree. The other, I believe, is the "Police State Mentality" that most Americans on the other end of the whip(The Sheeple) usually readily accept which promotes and engenders this practice when dealing with Federal or local authorities. If people do not speak out by writing truthful, fair-minded and formal complaints to the USCG, the practice will continue and probably get worse. American citizens and those from other countries should not be treated as criminals but given the benefit of courtesy and professionalism unless actions and mannerisms dictate otherwise. As a final remark, I would like to object to Boatman's remark that America has been solving its problems with a bullet for the last 200 years( a fact I will not dispute)but is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black . . . how do you think England maintained her great empire and colonies from the 15th Century to its historic end in the aftermath of WWII? Roses and sweet perfume? Few nations could historically compare to the extent of "British Discipline" imposed upon its colonies. We Americans know first hand. In the real world, however, this is the trademark of all successful civilizations.