Has Cruising Become Too Artificial, Too Expensive, Too Regulated ?

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by Leighpilot

I’m sure thieves and rogues would be very happy is governments stopped restricting fraud, theft and piracy. Cruising might be less fun though , if the parts you ordered never came or were unsafe

You're unspoken assumption that only government can prevent fraud is unfounded.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by hpeer

It is actually kind if interesting to see how things have or have not changed.

In the 'big picture', from the 1970's to 9-11 cruising got generally much easier, after 9-11 the trend reversed and it has gotten steadily harder, and as you say covid caused another difficulty spike.

[Shrew]

This is a 10 year old thread resurrected twice. So if we bring it back to the scope of the original post.....

Has anything really changed? Have we solved the problem in a decade? Is it really a problem at all?

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Astrid

As far as expense and regulations go, try flying private plane and compare that with taking your sail boat out for a trip down the coast.

I do both. While the growth of the Class B airspace has grown over the last 20 years I can pretty much go anywhere although it’s sometimes less of a pain to go around. TFRs make sense and exist on the water as well eg on the Hudson River when the UN is in session. Mostly I can land anywhere, and I’ve landed at MCO, CVG, and IAD before. Parking at large airports tends to be run by private complies with signature who rape little guys like me but smaller airports frequently don’t have any fees.

It’s not much different than paying for a municipal dock/mooring field vs anchoring somewhere more remote. I frankly see little difference although transient slip fees tend to be 4-5 times HIGHER than overnight ramp space.

[JPA Cate]

With a nod to the title of the resuscitated thread, this would be a value judgment, and also dependent upon where you cruise. There are places we don't go anchor any more because of overcrowding, but there are many nice places to go.

Obviously high density population first world places marina space will be "dear" in terms of what it was ten yrs. ago.

Covid restrictions are prevalent all over the South Pacific milk run, and proof of 3rd party insurance is required now, where they used to accept "self insured." The Covid restrictions are likely to last for a while, especially where there is not much health care superstructure.

It is a choice to be in the top of the cruising market: some people see advantages is staying in smaller boats with a lower profile. All the way at the bottom are the guys really scrabbling to make a go at cruising, and some have to return to the workaday life. But that was a normal part of cruising for many when we started out. Very few decide to do it for years and years, in any event, and that is because full time cruising is too different for most people to do for a long time. Most people want to do a variety of pastimes.

This forum has a number of people who cannot get back to their boats. Mike OReilly and El Pinguino have both been separated from their boats for [bloody] ever! In Australia, people have had hard times trying to sell boats (broker can't get the boat because of border lock downs), and some people have bought motor homes to land cruise while there boat is elsewhere. Also, it can be more difficult to get parts, due to Covid restrictions in other countries, as well as here.

Cruising has not changed, so much as the people doing it have. And that was noticeable in NZ in 1991: Kiwis mentioned it to us. In 1990, Yank cruisers were friendly to Kiwis and had social interaction with them, but in 1991, the first big mob came across all together in an "event", had made friends within the group and were touristing together, rather than interacting with foreign yachties. Sort of like a switch being thrown. At the same time, the boats leaving the States, the people had much less experience, and lots more money. And that was a long time before 9/11, which had made a big change for us. Not only did airplane travel almost double in cost for us, but it took longer, because of "security" measures. Which made trips back to the States to see family or deal with rental properties (a lot of cruisers used to use them to fund their cruising), got harder.

Everything changes over time.

Ann

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Does it really say "Tasmanian Wolf"? Likely meant to say TAsmanian TIGER. proper name Thylacine, and while they have been described as extinct for some years, there have been a rash of recent, fairly believable sightings. Kinda exciting for Taswegians, and apparently for those in Rochester!

So, here's a vote for NOT repealing that law... Tassie needs all of those tigers,and Rochester has enough rough fauna on its own!

Jim

Yeah well, Tasmania is somewhat a special place....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Which marking and regulations differ between the EU CE and the UKCA after Brexit.



I CE said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

UKCA has zero standing and currently is a facsimile of CE.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Bludi CE regs....

Would you prefer the previous situation where manufacturers had to build multiple variations to satisfy national standards in multiple countries ?????

The U.K. yacht industry lobbied very hard to get harmonised European boat standards and were the driving influence behind the RCD.

[goboatingnow]

I think sailing by and large must be one of the least regulated international activities. Owning cars is much worse

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Would you prefer the previous situation where manufacturers had to build multiple variations to satisfy national standards in multiple countries ?????

The U.K. yacht industry lobbied very hard to get harmonised European boat standards and were the driving influence behind the RCD.

Personally I preferred the old system where if you wanted a quality boat you bought one built to Lloyds specs, if you just wanted a boat to play on in an estuary you bought something else and the market decided who won and who lost.
While the industry may have supported it I remember the RYA fighting some of the ridiculous legislations that Brussels was trying to impose.
As far as I am concerned CE is little more than a 'legal' lowering of the bar to a minimal acceptable standard that does little to ensure safety or quality.
I am willing to bet your Bavaria would fail the Lloyds building standard by a mile.. along with Bene, Lagoon, Jeaneau etc..
Productions line yachts cannot meet the standards required.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Piney

Have we lost the "freedom of the seas" that sailors have been chasing for thousands of years?? Every year I see more regulations, more mooring fees, higher costs and more governmental control of sailors and boaters. Are we being regulated to death?

Thoughts?

You do realize "Pirates of the Caribbean" was a fictional movie and not a documentary...right?

For most of history, sailors went to sea because they had to do it to make money or in some cases to escapee bad situations.

The idea of heading to sea purely for pleasure is a relatively new idea. In significant numbers the modern idea of cruising is only 60-70yrs old. There were a few oddballs before that but no significant numbers.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Personally I preferred the old system where if you wanted a quality boat you bought one built to Lloyds specs, if you just wanted a boat to play on in an estuary you bought something else and the market decided who won and who lost.
While the industry may have supported it I remember the RYA fighting some of the ridiculous legislations that Brussels was trying to impose.
As far as I am concerned CE is little more than a 'legal' lowering of the bar to a minimal acceptable standard that does little to ensure safety or quality.
I am willing to bet your Bavaria would fail the Lloyds building standard by a mile.. along with Bene, Lagoon, Jeaneau etc..
Productions line yachts cannot meet the standards required.

oh course back then only " gentlemen" could afford such yachts and of course a gentleman had a "man " to sail it

68% of all EU legislation was dreamed up by the UK EU civil service , the most effective civil service in europe at the time , thankfully we'll see less rules now its gone . We are equally stuck with REACH, the EU chemical safety legislation whoch was largely lifted straight from UK regs

If the UK had spent more time not pushing legislative agendas in Europe , while simultaneously push the nonsense that it was all Brussels inspired , wed all have been better off

Of course my Bavaria wouldn't meet LLoyds A1, thankfully , I need to be able buy a 36 footer for under €500,000

Anyway Lloyds is so 1880, today is all De Norsk Veritas anyway , few use Lloyds as its dated

I suspect every production boats in GRP would fail LLoyds A1 unless that was specified in the build , that includes HR, AMel etc

as for

"As far as I am concerned CE is little more than a 'legal' lowering of the bar to a minimal acceptable standard that does little to ensure safety or quality."

Blanket dismissals are clearly just a knee jerk reaction . the RCD is progressing to be probably the best worldwide set of standards applied to pleasure boats .and its associated ISO standards are even being adopted by the ABYC . The standards are constantly being improved . ( even the seacocks one is now at 2020 revisions ) No other country or grouping of countries comes even close to having such effective and high standards.

Build a boat to the 2020 RCD standards and you get a very good boat indeed

you clearly have not read through all the standards nor have any idea of what was happening before the RCD was introduced . Note that "CE" is merely the mark , its not the system

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

In the 'big picture', from the 1970's to 9-11 cruising got generally much easier, after 9-11 the trend reversed and it has gotten steadily harder, and as you say covid caused another difficulty spike.

yes I think 9-11 had a way bigger effect the Covid, most Covid restrictions are temporary

[goboatingnow]

In my personal case Id say cruising has got way easier and less bureaucratic . I live in a country with virtually zero documentation requirements. I can buy and use a boat the same as I buy and use my fridge ( no Im not trying to sail my fridge )

Since accession to The EU and particularly from the adoption of the Single European Act ( Mastricht Treaty) it has become hugely less bureaucratic for me to cruise the EU countries. no check-in, very light touch controls , fantastic , The Euro is just cream on the cake . I come and go with all the freedoms akin to my domestic situation . The "four freedoms" has seen a huge reduction in hassle and inter country bureaucracy ( though sometimes the Portuguese need to be remined of these facts imho )

and a dig at Brexit Boatie

In the 1980s, when the economy of the EEC began to lag behind the rest of the developed world, Margaret Thatcher sent Arthur Cockfield, Baron Cockfield, to the Delors Commission to take the initiative to attempt to relaunch the common market. Cockfield wrote and published a White Paper in 1985 identifying 300 measures to be addressed in order to complete a single market.[12][13][14] The White Paper was well received and led to the adoption of the Single European Act,

yet another UK EU initiative !!! ( the irony , leaving a system you yourself designed !!)

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Cruising has at best 10 more years.

After that, every boat will be "watched" with satellite telescopes, and it will become impossible to enter a country or leave without paying the officials clearance fees. The average fee in 10 years will be about $1000 just to check in, but in australia it will be around $2500.

The destruction of the coral reefs will continue, and few tropical destinations will exist. This will greatly increase fees and regulations for any remaining locations. Consider that australia continues to promote flying over the great barrier reef even now that it is mostly destroyed, and flying is the fastest way to finish it off along with the rest of the reefs.

It will be impossible to catch fish as they continue to increase in levels of mercury and other toxins. ciguaterra is also on the rise.

As noted there will be more money balls, and all docks will require a $75 fee for dingy access.

Once ww3 breaks out, the US Navy will declare all cruising on "hiatus" and will board and/or destroy any private vessel under suspicion of "terrorist activity" or "spying"

Sailing will be made illegal, and motorboats will be allowed only with a special permit in territorial waters once a listening device is installed (which can also take over and drive the boat at any time)

I think you need to take a puff and relax.

Also WWIII seriously. If there is a WWIII cruising fees will be the least of your problems. Not starving and avoiding the cannibal rape gangs during the coming nuclear winter will be priority number one.