Furling Mainsails

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nogawyks

Exactly my point. They are so popular, I figured i was missing the point. Thank you for a very thorough answer. Do you have any opinion of in mast versus boom?

I have zero experience with in-boom furling so no opinion of my own. I hear both good and bad things about them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Jim, Sorry, I thought that it was obvious that I was pointing out that RF mains have abysmal lift to drag ratios when compared to standard ones. The math/science on this is unassailable IMO, & has been for decades. And this "rant" isn't directed at you Jim, or anyone, particularly.

I have actively avoided looking at otherwise great boats due to their having RF mains. To me having one is akin to a young single guys having a mini van or an RV as their daily driver. If you understand my analogy.

I reckon Dockhead has some good points about them, but... unless given a premium boat that already had one, I can't see making the switch. Why add increased heeling moment, & drag, weight aloft, loss of shape control... ???

As to standard mains & flatness, with any level of proper tuning controls I've no problem at all turning a standard main into a AAA-cup. And with full battens, reefed or not, you can feather a main so effectively as to remove the majority of it's heeling & driving force, should you choose to do so.

Will it ever be as flat as an RF main, probably not. At least not when reefed, but I'm okay with that. And BTW, have a look at Skip Novak's boat, Pelagic. Noting her standard main, with multiple reef points. Odds are there's a reason for that. And I can't see anyone calling him inexperienced.

The main is quite literally a boat's 2nd rudder, & I can't see purposefully removing essentially ALL of it's tuning controls. Especially not on a boat which sails anywhere that the winds are variable. Which is most of the planet.

I think Unciv might appreciate them more if he tried a good setup with a good laminate sail, but I don't think anything he's said is actually wrong. I wouldn't say furling mains have "all control removed", but it is true you lose mast bend, Cunningham, and flattening reef. But how many cruising boats use those controls anyway?

And one thing I agree with for sure - for God's sake, never try to convert a rig designed for a normal main. The whole boat, actually, needs to be designed for in-mast furling, in order for it to work reasonably well. You need more ballast, and a taller, higher aspect rig.

[Cheechako]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
"OK, those are the main pluses, and enough of an advantage that practically all large cruising boats made in the last 20 years and used in the UK, have furling mains. Like 98%. You will find the best sailors in the world in the sailing-crazed UK, so you should take note when they have an almost unanimous preference for furling mains, on non-racing boats."

With that logic one should get a power boat, they sell many times more than sailboats. So there you go! No reefing issues.

[Paul Elliott]

I've got a Leisurefurl boom on VALIS, and I like it a lot. It has full-length battens which give me good shape and a fair amount of roach. At full hoist I have a full sailshape, and without slacking the halyard I can put in a half or full-turn on the furling mandrel which nicely flattens the sail (the sail furls starting from the middle of the foot, and the foot and clew attachments tension the foot when the furling begins.) The sail does not get baggy when I continue to reef down. I can adjust backstay tension, but that's mainly for headsail shape -- since I don't have a fractional rig I can't bend the mast much.

The boom furler puts the excess weight down low. The boom is heavier than a traditional non-furling boom, but the furled sail isn't stored in the mast, so there's an advantage there.

Disadvantages:

The main uses a luff-tape and while we keep the friction low, it takes some effort to raise the main. I use a powered winch for easily hoisting and lowering the main, but it is certainly possible to crank it by hand.

The batten pockets are sewn into the luff, and they see a lot of stress and wear. They can also be damaged when deeply reefing downwind if you're not careful. Downwind in stiff conditions, I can easily put in a third-reef equivalent, but to reef any further requires someone at the mast, or that I turn upwind. In all other conditions, I can do this from the cockpit.

I've put over 30,000 nautical miles on this system, mostly in the Seattle / San Francisco / Hawaii triangle, with a visit to Southern California thrown in. In the early days I had serious trouble with the Leisurefurl, but after a few changes to the track and feed mechanism it has turned into a very reliable system.

It is fairly easy to deal with problems. In the early days, halfway back from Hawaii, the U-joint that connects the furling mandrel to the furling line drum dropped some retaining hardware, twisted up, and came loose in moderate winds. We were able to temporarily re-secure the U-joint and lash the sail to the boom in a partial reef and continue on our way. After trying to bolt the twisted U-joint back together (which is a very solid piece of stainless) and failing a few times, I ended up using some high-tech line to hold the thing together and we regained full operation of the main. All this was done with stuff on hand, 1000 miles from any land. I now inspect the U-joint hardware regularly and have it secured so this should never happen again.

Still, if I were doing a circumnavigation via the great capes, I would probably prefer a traditional system. It would be less convenient, but probably a little more bulletproof. For the way I sail now, I am glad I have the Leisurefurl.

[vtomanov]

I actually think in mas furler is very dangerous in bad weather... had a awful experience with my previous Bav 40 in the cyclades with furling main.. will never again go with in mast furler..

[UNCIVILIZED]

Since powered winches seem to get a lot of use on big boats when it comes to mainsails, I thought it prudent to pass along an old safety tip with regards to them. And it’s an inconvenience in terms of how you use them, but…

With powered winches, I always try & get folks to tail them manually instead of using the built in self tailer. Especially newbies. Even if it means that they’re pushing the switch for the winch with some body part other than a finger, since both hands may now be busy tailing the winch. As this way you can tell how much load's on the line, & you're far, far less likely to accidentally "over-hoist" something. Plus you can instantly tell when the load on the line is suddenly too high, & immediately cease tailing so that nothing gets damaged. Such as a sail torn in half due to a jammed luff tape. Since if no one’s actively pulling on the line which is on the winch drum, the winch could turn from now until The Rapture, but if no one's pulling in the line (tailing it, manually), then it won't move (in or out). Period. The drum will just spin.

It's a basic trimming technique that everyone needs to learn & practice/use. Since if they don't, well, imagine what'll happen if they hoist you up the mast using a power winch with the self tailer, & they goof. You either get pulled up into the underside of a spreader at Warp 9. Or have your family jewels sucked through a masthead sheave via a 24v motor, or hydraulics. Either way it’s Bad Juju.

Note that things are much the same if you're using your powered windlass as a winch. It's use bears serious paying attention to.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think Unciv might appreciate them more if he tried a good setup with a good laminate sail, but I don't think anything he's said is actually wrong. I wouldn't say furling mains have "all control removed", but it is true you lose mast bend, Cunningham, and flattening reef. But how many cruising boats use those controls anyway?

Dockhead, likely this has been covered before, but with RF mains, you’re giving up more than just one or two sail tuning controls. It's more like one or two dozen. For instance, with a regular main, & a boat built with a tunable rig, & not necessarily a racing boat mind you. On a standard mainsail you can have:
Outhaul
Flattener
Cunningham
Backstay
Vang
Runners, or Runners & Check stays
Babystay
Cutter Stay
Choice of batten stiffness: Which, you can even custom make battens to suit local conditions, or to best match the sail itself.
Batten tension settings: And each one has a whole range of adjustment.
Leech cord tension
Halyard tension

And if you’ve a mind to alter their settings, as they definitely affect sail shape, there’s your:
Lower shrouds
Intermediates (sometimes upper & lowers, if it’s a 3 spreader rig)
Caps (shrouds)

Plus in port, or during true lulls at sea, you can adjust:
Mast butt position on the step
Deck chocking
Headstay length. Either via choosing which hole in the link plates to use, or via the turnbuckle (or do this hydraulically).
Which hole in the headboard you use for the halyard
Which hole to use to attach the backstay to the masthead

Do all, or even half, of these get used by your average cruiser? Probably not. But by someone wanting to best optimize their boat, as well as to tune the rig for it’s own best safety, then, yes, quite a few of them are routinely adjusted. And their use (or not) can add or subtract quite a lot from a boat's speed, leeway, angle of heel, leeway, etc.

Plus as the seasons & temperature changes, the various parts of a rig "grow or shrink" at differing rates. And I know that on my car I surely check (& change) the air pressure in my car's tires between winter & summer. Or if I travel from Florida to Maine. A sailboat rig is much the same.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Dockhead, likely this has been covered before, but with RF mains, you’re giving up more than just one or two sail tuning controls. It's more like one or two dozen. For instance, with a regular main, & a boat built with a tunable rig, & not necessarily a racing boat mind you. On a standard mainsail you can have:
Outhaul
Flattener
Cunningham
Backstay
Vang
Runners, or Runners & Check stays
Babystay
Cutter Stay
Choice of batten stiffness: Which, you can even custom make battens to suit local conditions, or to best match the sail itself.
Batten tension settings: And each one has a whole range of adjustment.
Leech cord tension
Halyard tension

And if you’ve a mind to alter their settings, as they definitely affect sail shape, there’s your:
Lower shrouds
Intermediates (sometimes upper & lowers, if it’s a 3 spreader rig)
Caps (shrouds)

Plus in port, or during true lulls at sea, you can adjust:
Mast butt position on the step
Deck chocking
Headstay length. Either via choosing which hole in the link plates to use, or via the turnbuckle (or do this hydraulically).
Which hole in the headboard you use for the halyard
Which hole to use to attach the backstay to the masthead

Do all, or even half, of these get used by your average cruiser? Probably not. But by someone wanting to best optimize their boat, as well as to tune the rig for it’s own best safety, then, yes, quite a few of them are routinely adjusted. And their use (or not) can add or subtract quite a lot from a boat's speed, leeway, angle of heel, leeway, etc.

Plus as the seasons & temperature changes, the various parts of a rig "grow or shrink" at differing rates. And I know that on my car I surely check (& change) the air pressure in my car's tires between winter & summer. Or if I travel from Florida to Maine. A sailboat rig is much the same.

A lot of that is comprehended in "mast bend", but sure. No one disagrees that you have more options with a full batten main. My next boat will have a full batten main (and maybe mizzen -- she might be a ketch) and slender light bendable mast(s).

My point was only that furling mains don't actually suck as much as some people think, if you have a good sail and the system is set up well. I just sailed 1000 miles upwind with one, and we blew by a lot of boats with full batten mains, including some racing boats having all the controls you described. When I go to a full batten main myself, I will really miss being able to play the furler constantly, keeping just the right amount of sail area up all the time, in strong gusty conditions.

But I will love the low windage and weight aloft!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

On a standard mainsail you can have[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Outhaul
Flattener
Cunningham
Backstay
Vang
Runners, or Runners & Check stays
Babystay
Cutter Stay
Choice of batten stiffness: Which, you can even custom make battens to suit local conditions, or to best match the sail itself.
Batten tension settings: And each one has a whole range of adjustment.
Leech cord tension
Halyard tension

And if you’ve a mind to alter their settings, as they definitely affect sail shape, there’s your:
Lower shrouds
Intermediates (sometimes upper & lowers, if it’s a 3 spreader rig)
Caps (shrouds)

Plus in port, or during true lulls at sea, you can adjust:
Mast butt position on the step
Deck chocking
Headstay length. Either via choosing which hole in the link plates to use, or via the turnbuckle (or do this hydraulically).
Which hole in the headboard you use for the halyard
Which hole to use to attach the backstay to the masthead

Wow, now exactly how many people would use all these controls even if they were available? If you are racing around the cans on a Sunday morning with 6 big lads on the rail who knew what they were doing then perhaps. Back in the real world of a couple sailing to the Bahamas or carrib for the summer, well it just isn't going to happen.

You keep saying there is extra weight aloft. Is there? my mast section is the same sort of diameter as a slab reefing mast. Heavy sail? well I can lift the main with one hand. So how much of a difference is this making on a cruising yacht? with a dinghy and god forbid an outboard on the rail 90 litres of fuel and 120 litres of water in the tanks plus a fortnights food and a dog. Then there is the A frame and solar panels. So the 6oz of extra weight is harming my sailing performance by how much exactly?

We have just replaced the main as the last one was made in 2001. It has never needed a repair or even been cleaned, its overall appearance is its in very good condition. The only reason for the change is each panel in the cross cut sail was baggy after 17 years of use. This is down to the original material and time, otherwise I wouldn't have changed it.

Pete