Doing my research and wondering...

[ka4wja]

Lee,
Since it's just the two of you, and not big entertainers (especially below decks), and you're planning on cruising the Caribbean....
And, whatever boat you buy will certainly have (or you will quickly add) a decent cockpit table that you can use both at sea and at anchor...

If you get a boat with a chart table, and/or some other small table below, I can't see any reason to have a big dinette table!
For some odd reason, this opinion is not widely held by those that have big dinette tables, but IS widely accepted by those that don't!!

As I wrote earlier, I had planned on buying one directly from Catalina, but in the 2 days of sailing my new boat home, I concluded it was totally unnecessary for me and my plans!

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I actually like the smaller tables but again, I am not sure what we will really like until we are experiencing it. It's just the two of us and we are not huge entertainers let alone spending much time below unless we are ill (and still maybe not then) or weather conditions.

BTW, I took a few quick pics of my main salon today....thinking you may like to see how open it becomes without a big table...








And, yes, also as I wrote earlier, I did add some addition handrails to assist movement and allow for more safety below, when at sea...
Handrails



Lee, You've mentioned a lot here...
First off...remember that most charter boats are the ones designed and built for the charter market and are not great representations of what boats might better suit your needs and desires!!
Things like most using brass thru-hulls designed to last 5 years (rather than bronze or Marelon), cast iron or steel keels, etc. will not show up as issues when your chartering, but will become problems if you end up buying a boat so designed / built...not to mention the hull underbody and its performance in a heavy sea (especially to windward) is not likely to be noticed when chartering...
These might not be deal-breakers for you, just wanted you to be aware...

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

We are doing a charter in October to get on a boat that is similar to a boat on our list so I plan on soaking up (and recording because I forget things) all the details on the boat and what we like and do not care for.

Love the pics, thank you! Nav station/electronics look great too! Sooooo you are SURE you don't want to sell her?!

Well, they say everything is for sale, for the right price....but, not today!






Understand that using a side boarding ladder on your mothership, to get in / out-of dinghy, can actually be preferable to the stern, if you're in a choppy anchorage!
Just remember, when delivering stores / provisions, in a choppy anchorage, placing them on the sidedeck is usually the better approach than trying to haul 'em in from the transom with the dinghy bouncing around...

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I was most curious about the sugar scoop transoms and about what year they were introduced. I originally said swim platforms and didn't realize they could be added (duh) until Ann talked about it.
We would like the space and easier way of getting off and on the boat vs side ladders and such.

Fiberglass lasts a LONG LONG time...and some older boats (from the 1970's, etc.) were "over-built"....but many used cores so the only way to know if they're structurally sound is by professional survey...although some cores are perfectly fine, other manufacturers had issues throughout their fleets....but, if only used above water line and in decks, these are repairable. (look for boats that only used end-grain Baltec 600, only above waterline and/or in decks...anything else could be suspect...)

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I was wondering year because I do need to stay in our budget and I would like to do more research on particular boats including their year to get an idea if they are structurally sound or worth looking at. I understand maintenance is huge but I have come to realize some years of boats just don't seem to 'hold up' as well as others.

The reasons some just don't seem to hold up is because of how crappy they were made!!
You get what you pay for here!!









I can't go thru everything here... So, I'll just hit a few points, off-the-top-of-my-head...
Fiberglass doesn't deteriorate....at least not for many, many decades....
Yes, the gelcoat will get chalky...and Awlgrip will fade....but the fiberglass will last a LONG time...
And, if you buy a boat from a good manufacturer, they will have used vinylester resin (at least on outer coats) that is not water absorbing.....so, your hull can last longer than you will be alive!!
And, as for rigging, spars, etc...if you buy a boat from a good manufacturer, they used 316 rigging wire and if cleaned / maintained it too will last a long time (some get 15 years, some more...)
Blocks, winches, etc....Garhauer, Harken, etc. will last a long time, but do need maintenance!!

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

This is probably a naive comment to make but I'll put it out there anyway. I just can't believe how expensive something can be and still seem to deteriorate so easily and often. I'm not scared of maintenance or minor repair work,

Just understand that salt water (and the sea air, too) is very corrosive....and the things that aren't corroded away, are taken care of by the sun's UV!!
BTW, there are a few things that just last, and last....
Garhauer...blocks, rigging hardware, engine hoists, davits..
Yanmar...diesel
Yamaha...outboards (especially the old 2-strokes)
Hypalon... (Caribe or AB)
Kyocera (solar panels)
Blue Sky (solar charge controllers)
Acco / Peerless (G43 chain)
New England Ropes / Sampson (docklines, running rigging, and anchor line)
Icom... (VHF, and SSB, radios)
Spectra (watermakers)
Vesper (AIS)....but they haven't been around long enough to be considered "lasting"...yet...
Oh, and Catalina....


BTW, if you want to read a very short story about Garhauer, have a look here:
Main Traveler
You will never buy another Harken, Schaefer, or Lewmar, again!




Hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John

[ka4wja]

Lee,
FYI, there are some boats that started-out without a sugar-scoop stern, and many hulls sold....and years later the manufacturer changed the design (slightly) by adding the sugar-scoop / swim-step transom...

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I was most curious about the sugar scoop transoms and about what year they were introduced. I originally said swim platforms and didn't realize they could be added (duh) until Ann talked about it.
We would like the space and easier way of getting off and on the boat vs side ladders and such.

I was wondering year because I do need to stay in our budget.

As examples:
The Hylas 44 (built from 84 thru 93)...became the Hylas 45.5 (built from 93 thru 96?), when they added the swim-step transom...
The Stevens 47 (an older late 70's S&S design, built from 81 thru 86) and the Hylas 47 (name change to Hylas 47, in 86 and built to 92)...became the Hylas 49 (built from 93 to present), when they added the big swim-step / sugar-scoop stern...



BTW, I assume you're using Sailboatdata.com
Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat database.
Just remember that while it will give you the specs....and Yachtworld will get you lots of pricing....but, the owners groups will get you ALL the scoop on everything!!!
So..
So, when you start to narrow down the choices, go ahead and join a few of the owner's groups (for the boats that you're considering)....
I did this myself back in 2002...joined Catalina 470 group, Hylas group, and also Hinckley group (for a while, 'cuz I grew up sailing on my parents' Hinckley)....learned that Hylas' are not so good, lots of marketing hype and fine wood joinery, but inferior in other (more important) areas....and learned how impressive the bigger Catalina's are!!
(sorry, not trying to make a sales pitch for Catalina....just passing on my thought process / history!)



I hope this gives you some more info to grind on...

Fair winds...

John

[JPA Cate]

Hello again, Lee,

A word about galleys like you've seen in John's pictures. That shape is called "L-shaped", and generally requires a butt belt for safe operation in a vigorous seaway. Don't leave home without it.

Some boats have U shaped galleys. Generally no butt belt needed. Since we sold our first Insatiable, I haven't needed one, but with a stand off rail, and a butt belt, you can be really safe in all cooking conditions. You'll soon learn when you want it.

John, you take exemplary care of your boat. Well done.

Ann

PS. Never had a problem entering our 18" diameter tube dinghies from the water, first take off the tank and put it in the forward part of the dinghy, then, holding onto the handle or rope on the side, sink down, give a mighty kick with your fins, and scramble aboard. This came up on another thread a couple or 3 weeks ago, and someone posted a video of a woman rolling into her dinghy, facing away from it, jack-knifing, throwing her legs up and back, and following them into it. Quite amazing. I don't know if it will work with a large, competent dinghy.

[Sandero]

[QUOTE=JPA Cate;2430124]Hello again, Lee,

A word about galleys like you've seen in John's pictures. That shape is called "L-shaped", and generally requires a butt belt for safe operation in a vigorous seaway. Don't leave home without it.

Some boats have U shaped galleys. Generally no butt belt needed. Since we sold our first Insatiable, I haven't needed one, but with a stand off rail, and a butt belt, you can be really safe in all cooking conditions. You'll soon learn when you want it.

John, you take exemplary care of your boat. Well done.

Ann

I have a U shaped galley with a stand off rail as you call it... and it DOES require a belt when work heeled over on either tack. You lean back and the belt supports you and your feet/legs are supported beneath the stove which is gimbaled and in the bottom of the U (outboard). I can also brace myself against the companionway steps/bulkhead/structure. The key is bracing yourself.

[ka4wja]

Ann,
Actually, I do have a "U'-shaped" galley...







And, I'm a big guy and find I need no belt to keep myself in place, while cooking at sea...
But, I do wonder if a more petite sailor would need it??

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Some boats have U shaped galleys. Generally no butt belt needed. Since we sold our first Insatiable, I haven't needed one, but with a stand off rail, and a butt belt, you can be really safe in all cooking conditions. You'll soon learn when you want it.

John, you take exemplary care of your boat. Well done.

Ann

Thanks for the compliment....but like all boats, it's a constant job keeping her running well and in good shape...
(FYI, the Awlgrip is fading a bit....my red canvas is turning pink...one zipper on my dodger is starting go....I got a "drip - drip" leak in my watermaker...but, you can't see any of that from the pics... )

Fair winds...

John

[JPA Cate]

John, not to bee contentious, but I agree you're technically correct, but i question whether a petite person could both he wedged in the U and cook on the farther burners., but I'm only guessing at the scale. Our U shaped galley is 32" x 24", and I have always felt secure in there.

Some friends with a 44 or so footer had a plain L-shape, with no butt belt, and you should have seen the cook's bruises! No, belts are a good deal.

Ann

[TomAndLee]

John~

Originally Posted by ka4wja

BTW, I took a few quick pics of my main salon today....thinking you may like to see how open it becomes without a big table...

Thanks for the pics, I do like it without the table but also understand that a table can be necessary at times as well. Just knowing I have an option makes me happy.

And, yes, also as I wrote earlier, I did add some addition handrails to assist movement and allow for more safety below, when at sea...
Handrails

Handrails=important to me for sure..maybe not island hopping but we won't be doing that forever.

Lee, You've mentioned a lot here...
First off...remember that most charter boats are the ones designed and built for the charter market and are not great representations of what boats might better suit your needs and desires!!
Things like most using brass thru-hulls designed to last 5 years (rather than bronze or Marelon), cast iron or steel keels, etc. will not show up as issues when your chartering, but will become problems if you end up buying a boat so designed / built...not to mention the hull underbody and its performance in a heavy sea (especially to windward) is not likely to be noticed when chartering...
These might not be deal-breakers for you, just wanted you to be aware...
Well, they say everything is for sale, for the right price....but, not today!


I am hoping the chartering will give us more of an idea of rigging systems and creature comforts. I think talking to people like you and researching is what will drive us to learn more about the foundation aspects so we can put those decisions first. I hope to be able to crew a few times as well to be able to build up our experience as well. Not sure we will have the time to do that but still will be looking at it down the road..I hope we get the opportunity anyway.


Understand that using a side boarding ladder on your mothership, to get in / out-of dinghy, can actually be preferable to the stern, if you're in a choppy anchorage!
Just remember, when delivering stores / provisions, in a choppy anchorage, placing them on the sidedeck is usually the better approach than trying to haul 'em in from the transom with the dinghy bouncing around...

I completely see your point here. I think when it's choppy we can rig up something to haul from the side but I know we want the sugar scoop transom, that is kind of a no compromise on our list.

... (look for boats that only used end-grain Baltic 600, only above waterline and/or in decks...anything else could be suspect...)
The reasons some just don't seem to hold up is because of how crappy they were made!!
You get what you pay for here!!

I hear that a lot and I agree with you get what you pay for on land and I'm sure it isn't much different in the marine world. It's just that everyones price is different, everyone's opinion of the pay off vs the financial output is different so sometimes this gets a bit cloudy for me. This goes along with what Ken said as well about buying newer. What exactly is 'newer'...2 years old?...5...10? What about a 15 year old boat with upgrades and replacements? Yes I would much rather have newer but I don't want to throw out older (15 year) boats that have had system upgrades/refits etc. I know finding that unicorn will be difficult, if at all, but I can't help but still check them out and not discounting them because of price. Many don't get back what they put into them so weeding through the ads is unfortunately my obsession as of late.


can't go thru everything here... So, I'll just hit a few points, off-the-top-of-my-head...
Fiberglass doesn't deteriorate....at least not for many, many decades....
Yes, the gelcoat will get chalky...and Awlgrip will fade....but the fiberglass will last a LONG time...
And, if you buy a boat from a good manufacturer, they will have used vinylester resin (at least on outer coats) that is not water absorbing.....so, your hull can last longer than you will be alive!!
And, as for rigging, spars, etc...if you buy a boat from a good manufacturer, they used 316 rigging wire and if cleaned / maintained it too will last a long time (some get 15 years, some more...)
Blocks, winches, etc....Garhauer, Harken, etc. will last a long time, but do need maintenance!! Just understand that salt water (and the sea air, too) is very corrosive....and the things that aren't corroded away, are taken care of by the sun's UV!!
BTW, there are a few things that just last, and last....
Garhauer...blocks, rigging hardware, engine hoists, davits..
Yanmar...diesel
Yamaha...outboards (especially the old 2-strokes)
Hypalon... (Caribe or AB)
Kyocera (solar panels)
Blue Sky (solar charge controllers)
Acco / Peerless (G43 chain)
New England Ropes / Sampson (docklines, running rigging, and anchor line)
Icom... (VHF, and SSB, radios)
Spectra (watermakers)
Vesper (AIS)....but they haven't been around long enough to be considered "lasting"...yet...
Oh, and Catalina....

GREAT info! Thank you! Would love to buy y'all dinner sometime down the road and pick your brain

BTW, if you want to read a very short story about Garhauer, have a look here:
Main Traveler
You will never buy another Harken, Schaefer, or Lewmar, again!

Great article! I love hot butter and great customer service!


Hope this helps...

It all helps...thank you!

Fair winds...

John

[TomAndLee]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello again, Lee,

A word about galleys like you've seen in John's pictures. That shape is called "L-shaped", and generally requires a butt belt for safe operation in a vigorous seaway. Don't leave home without it.

Some boats have U shaped galleys. Generally no butt belt needed. Since we sold our first Insatiable, I haven't needed one, but with a stand off rail, and a butt belt, you can be really safe in all cooking conditions. You'll soon learn when you want it.

I have never heard of this butt belt you speak of but I have a feeling it something I need to look into.

John, you take exemplary care of your boat. Well done.

Ann

PS. Never had a problem entering our 18" diameter tube dinghies from the water, first take off the tank and put it in the forward part of the dinghy, then, holding onto the handle or rope on the side, sink down, give a mighty kick with your fins, and scramble aboard. This came up on another thread a couple or 3 weeks ago, and someone posted a video of a woman rolling into her dinghy, facing away from it, jack-knifing, throwing her legs up and back, and following them into it. Quite amazing. I don't know if it will work with a large, competent dinghy.

I need to see this video..I can't imagine facing AWAY from the dinghy, would have never crossed my mind!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

If you get a boat with a chart table, and/or some other small table below, I can't see any reason to have a big dinette table!
For some odd reason, this opinion is not widely held by those that have big dinette tables, but IS widely accepted by those that don't!!

As I wrote earlier, I had planned on buying one directly from Catalina, but in the 2 days of sailing my new boat home, I concluded it was totally unnecessary for me and my plans!

BTW, I took a few quick pics of my main salon today....thinking you may like to see how open it becomes without a big table...

I totally agree...no dining table below! Its not in use 99% of the time, and takes up so much useful space below.

I have removed the dining table on several of the boats I have owned, and enjoyed the extra space below...especially when my kids were little. We usually ate in the cockpit anyway.

My favorite arrangement is a drop down table that stows on the bulkhead when not in use. You get a decent table that disappears most of the time. I had that on my most recent Pearson 30. The downside is that the table stows right where you want to mount the big TV. First world problems.

[TomAndLee]

I like the fold up tables too and exactly my thoughts on them. I don't care for tv but would be good for movies on a rainy day.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I like the fold up tables too and exactly my thoughts on them. I don't care for tv but would be good for movies on a rainy day.

In my area, we can get maybe 2 channels with a VHF antenna on the TV. But as the boat slowly swings at anchor, the channel fades in and out, and the antenna must be moved. The REAL entertainment was watching my kids moving the antenna endlessly trying to watch some boring show they would not even consider watching at home.

I used a portable DVD player with the TV...that was nice, but too many wires. I worried about power consumption, but my concerns were unwarranted.

I had a "smartbox" for use at my home marina to get netflix and other internet tv services...but the wifi at my marina was always so slow it was not worth the frustration.

Yes, I've drifted off topic.

[Calif.Ted]

Did you notice the swim ladder on the back of John's Catalina ? Recently my friends' 300+ lbs Brother in law made a pretzel out of the ladder on his Jeanneau so on the fourth he dinghy'ed him over to try and bend mine. Didn't happen and Bubba was able to climb out of the water with a big smile and no damage. That solid ladder on the back of a Catalina goes WAY down and if I had a tank on ?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I need to see this video..I can't imagine facing AWAY from the dinghy, would have never crossed my mind!

Here ya go:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2383607

and the direct link to the video:

https://youtu.be/GQuIJ3D5Kcc

[JPA Cate]

Lee, the "butt belt" is just a wide belt (ours was made from multiple layers of sailcloth, with cutouts for two large D-rings, the vertical part about 2-1/2 " tall. The cloth was then sewn around the rings, on 1/2 " intervals along the length of the belt. Jim fitted aluminum alloy carabiners, so all I had to do was snap in.) The attachments on that boat were 4 long wood screws per side on [obviously, 4 hole pad eyes] pad eyes, into solid timber joinery. Never moved or tried to pull out. Safe as houses!

Ann

[valhalla360]

Lots of people telling you what features you want or don't want but take them for what they are. For every person telling you that one thing is great, there are likely another who has the opposite opinion.

I'll focus on the initial question:
There are search engines to narrow down your search but the problem comes in when you try to get too specific. Price, length, beam, engine type and a few other variables are accommodated by many search engines to various degrees.

But when you get beyond the basics, you move into a gray area and the databases are frequently not fully populated (or a specific model may have different layouts). Example what happens if you select by number of cabins?
- Does a berth in the main cabin count?
- What about a quarter berth that's kind of separated but not really a separate room?
- What if it's a separate room with a door but no place to stand?
- What if the model has different variations with different numbers of cabins?
- What if the seller didn't fill in the number of cabins? Does the system omit or keep it?

This is just one variable. If you start talking about dozens or even hundreds of variables, very quickly developing a search engine that gets you only what you really want and populating the database to feed it becomes a huge issue.

If you go to craigslist, you will see people gaming the system by putting related (but incorrect) words at the bottom of the ad...why because if you are searching for an F150 and they are selling a dodge or chevy, by putting F150 randomly at the bottom of the ad it will come up with a search. It's a challenging thing.

Your best bet is to treat the search as entertainment and sift thru ads looking at what you like and don't like and eventually, you will hone in on makes and models that you like.