Civil Asset Forfeiture ... A Civil Discussion ....

[SURV69]

I'm on the Great Lakes and for the most part, the other side of the Great Lakes is another country ... Canada.

I've often heard that going into Canadian waters, with no landfall required no VISA .... I've heard that "wandering", into Canadian waters without anchoring requires no VISA.

Lately I've been viewing articles about something called Civil Asset Forfeiture, a program used by the British back in the 1800's to seize merchant vessels engaged in illegal activities. The idea being that the ship, it's cargo and some of it's crew(British origin), could be seized by the Crown .... this was evidently how impressment(sp), was allowed. We actually declared war on Britain, very much in part, because of these actions. But this law, ordinance or concept(whatever it really was), was an action between counties.

Somehow, this law became incorporated in American jurisprudence ... one way or another and the concept was revived during prohibition as a method of making bootlegging NOT PROFITABLE, by seizing the ultimate purpose of bootlegging .... money and assets.

Now, in present time, this concept has again been revived for the war on drugs.

On the surface, this concept makes sense .... the reality doesn't make sense.

This concept, to a boater on Lake Erie ... If I had, say $5000 in my pocket, which, back when I ran my business I did, at times ...

The use of this concept has been very much abused by law enforcement ... a sweetheart tool(overreach), has become a nightmare of tyranny to some.

Type "Civil Asset Forfeiture", to see for yourself.

Then imagine being on a boat and being stopped by any one of the many law enforcement entities ...

Begin Discussion ......

[IdoraKeeper]

When used in combination with taxation CAF is an effective tool in dealing with criminals of great wealth.

[belizesailor]

CAF is a big hot button with some conspiracy theorists I know. They always seem to think the government forces are after them...when in reality they are not on anyone's radar...often not even their own families any more (who've been alienated by their paranoid ranting). In reality no one really gives a rat arse about them.

However, its recent resurgence with power grab legislation in patriotic clothing (AKA Patriot Act) is disconcerting.

While in theory the average citizen could get caught up by CAF, I think the risk is pretty low.

Besides genuine criminals/tax evaders/terrorists, can you site any cases where the average schmo had CAF used against him?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by SURV69

The use of this concept has been very much abused by law enforcement ... a sweetheart tool(overreach), has become a nightmare of tyranny to some.

Type "Civil Asset Forfeiture", to see for yourself.

Then imagine being on a boat and being stopped by any one of the many law enforcement entities ...

Begin Discussion ......

So, how is this different from IRS impoundment of Assets, until proven otherwise?

In any "Enforcement" scenario, there is the risk of abuse, but to defang those enforcers due to a few bad judgements, is not productive when fighting crime

For a while I was the frequent victim of bad US intelligence as a result of a most wanted criminal using my name as an alias.
Unfortunate, Irritating and time consuming, but not once did I feel any animosity towards the people trying to do their job.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-civil/534168/

[SURV69]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

CAF is a big hot button with some conspiracy theorists I know. They always seem to think the government forces are after them...when in reality they are not on anyone's radar...often not even their own families any more (who've been alienated by their paranoid ranting). In reality no one really gives a rat arse about them.

However, its recent resurgence with power grab legislation in patriotic clothing (AKA Patriot Act) is disconcerting.

While in theory the average citizen could get caught up by CAF, I think the risk is pretty low.

Besides genuine criminals/tax evaders/terrorists, can you site any cases where the average schmo had CAF used against him?

Can I cite any cases .... not personally ... but there are cases that scream out innocence, and to think for a moment that "a few", citizens, potentially have almost everything they've worked for taken away from them when they haven't committed a crime is in itself a crime.

"While in theory the average citizen could get caught up by CAF, I think the risk is pretty low." ... if that's the type of society you want live in, you can have ... go ahead, give up you constitutional rights/protections, but don't come screaming if you ever happen to get caught up in it .... on your way to buying a car(for cash), you found on Carigslist!.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Are there instances of blatant civil asset forfeiture against ppl with no wrong doing by local Sheriff departments? Yes.

Are they likely to happen to an "innocent boater w large amounts of cash and interestingly darting to and back from an international border?" Nope.

America is a huge place. There are local PDs and Sheriff departments all over the place and individual officers can abuse civil forfeiture - the remedy? As in the case of civil society - is bringing suit against the PD/Sheriff department.

Thankfully most corrupt wiley coyete Sheriffs tend to be cowboy hat wearing idiots in landlocked states.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by SURV69

Can I cite any cases .... not personally ... but there are cases that scream out innocence, and to think for a moment that "a few", citizens, potentially have almost everything they've worked for taken away from them when they haven't committed a crime is in itself a crime.

"While in theory the average citizen could get caught up by CAF, I think the risk is pretty low." ... if that's the type of society you want live in, you can have ... go ahead, give up you constitutional rights/protections, but don't come screaming if you ever happen to get caught up in it .... on your way to buying a car(for cash), you found on Carigslist!.

Ah well, that brought out your "civil" agenda pretty quickly.

[dwedeking2]

A report from the Institute of Justice documenting the asset forfeiture issue. Report

My personal opinion is that this flies directly in the face of due process and for US citizens (this is an international forum) Constitutional Rights (more so in some states than others).

Also, I don't feel that the "it fights crime" is a positive enough benefit to outweigh the risks to innocents. It can cost you more than the assets are worth to prove your innocence.

[SURV69]

Civil agenda?

No ... not "civil", agenda ... rather "civil", fear ....

[toddster8]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

CAF is a big hot button with some conspiracy theorists I know. They always seem to think the government forces are after them...when in reality they are not on anyone's radar...often not even their own families any more (who've been alienated by their paranoid ranting). In reality no one really gives a rat arse about them.

However, its recent resurgence with power grab legislation in patriotic clothing (AKA Patriot Act) is disconcerting.

While in theory the average citizen could get caught up by CAF, I think the risk is pretty low.

Besides genuine criminals/tax evaders/terrorists, can you site any cases where the average schmo had CAF used against him?

IIRC, During the Reagan years, DEA actually attempted to seize the entire RV Atlantis, (Mother Ship to the Alvin Submarine) over residue in a pipe found in a crewman's bunk. (They couldn't seize Alvin itself, because it technically belongs to the Navy.) Ultimately they didn't get away with it.

[lonesoldier0408]

I'm currently attempting to get a local officer and co-conspirators in court, for a jury trial. The "Judges," have blocked the Jury trial, claiming, "Frivolous."
Which of your rights are frivolous.?
Why do they fear the Jury.?

[Tetepare]

Soooo much misinformation.

While the Brits did indeed illegally impress sailors into slave service, the War of 1812 was clearly an absolute intent of US expansion. I'm American, and I live in one of the 1812 hotspots, so I can say that. Impressed service was an excuse- tail wags the dog.

CAF has been widely abused against innocent civilians. Sometimes it's for political reasons (akin the the IRS scandal) and sometimes because the coppers want the cash. Sadly, even when charges are dropped, victims can't get the money returned. Just like US/ Britain and the Treaty of Jay in which those #*)*@ Brits refused to honor the law and refused to return Oswego and Carelton Island.

If you want to know about these things search with Google or Wikipedia. All Americans should be aware of what's going on.

A lawsuit against the PD? Good luck. Judges and cops have immunity unless a rights violation can be proven 100%. And who do you think pays for the lawyer up front? And who pays? It isn't the PD, it's the taxpayers- actually the insurance company, which is paid for by the taxpayers. But the cops and judges very, very rarely suffer consequences.

Here's a funny one. Some 20 years ago during the War On Drugs and Zero Tolerance the local coppers smelled pot from a large expensive powerboat, so seized the boat under CAF. But the problem was that the boat was rather new and the bank actually owned most of the boat- and the bank became very, very angry. So the cops gave the boat to the bank, which turned it back to the owner so he could (would) continue his payments.

Ask the Hawaiians about CAF. Their kingdom was seized.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by SURV69

Civil agenda?

No ... not "civil", agenda ... rather "civil", fear ....

I was referring to "Civil Discussion" in the title.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by SURV69

Then imagine being on a boat and being stopped by any one of the many law enforcement entities ...

Begin Discussion ......

I don't think there's any question that there have been substantial abuses in some jurisdictions. Locally we had something called the "Metro Gang Strike Force" that was disbanded by the legislature due in large measure to forfeiture abuses.

How do you protect yourself?
* Limit your own use of recreationals to things like coffee, Winstons, and Schlitz.
* Don't bring on crew that use.
* Know what's on your boat.
* Don't make yourself a target for LE by carrying materials of Cuban manufacture, distillation equipment from New Zealand, exotic wood, tusks, etc.
* Maintain and operate your boat in such a way that you are less likely to get boarded in the first place. A routine boarding for a safety violation is the thin end of the wedge.
* Plan your itinerary to avoid unnecessary border crossings.
* Make every effort to comply with customs and immigration requirements.

Common sense stuff.