City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

[colemj]

Again, that wasn't the question you asked - you are squirming around in this area looking to make your question fit the argument you wish to make.

What right/benefits are transient boaters taking? What rights do people 34 floors up in a condo have regarding their views? If a taller condo goes up right next to them and changes their view to a brick wall, do they have the right to remove it? If they don't like the design of a new building on the skyline, can they get it removed?

This isn't about transients - everyone seems to be concerned about those who stay long-term. It is quite possible that those people are paying taxes to the locality.

I keep making this point to no avail - people are being sucked unawares onto the "side" of those who want to deny boat access by beginning their arguments as a derelict boat situation being a forgone conclusion.

Don't let them arbitrarily dictate the terms, boundaries and direction of the argument - force them to argue from existing terms and boundaries. It is their burden to be on the defensive, not boater's.

Mark

[rognvald]

"This isn't about transients - everyone seems to be concerned about those who stay long-term. It is quite possible that those people are paying taxes to the locality.

I keep making this point to no avail - people are being sucked unawares onto the "side" of those who want to deny boat access by beginning their arguments as a derelict boat situation being a forgone conclusion." Colemj


Mark,
Where in any of my responses did I say this was about transient cruisers? The OP's original statement concerned derelict boats and suggestions he could present to city administrators from CF members to solve the conflict. I have stated this previously. To assume that the long term anchorites(excuse the pun) of the derelict vessels are paying taxes is naive at best if you correlate taxes on wages or retail purchases as commensurate with the property taxes paid by landowners. This is patently absurd. They would have to pay sales tax and income tax wherever they lived. I know this area and homeowners easily pay tens of thousands of dollars a month in property taxes to live there and it is not unreasonable for them to want to protect their properties values. I believe you would feel the same way if your property value was threatened or diminished for whatever reason. So, no one has drifted off course. The statements I have presented are clear, concise and easily understood. To transform this discussion into a futile exercise in sophistry is patently absurd and disingenuous to our readers. So, in conclusion, deal with the derelict boats through rigorous enforcement of existing or newly implemented laws, adopt Captain Bill's approach for the rest of us and the problem is solved for all concerned parties. Good luck and good sailing. P.S. As one last remark that is to be taken in general and not personally aimed at anyone: There is an unhealthy mentality among some in Western countries today to demonize those that have wealth and been successful in their lives. Whether it be stated or implied, it debases the freedom of people to pursue their own self-interests and excel based upon their given talents. It seeks to affirm that everyone is the same. It is not true. It is counter-nature. Wealth is an essential ingredient for the success of a nation. It is how America became the greatest superpower in the world. If we lose it, it will lead to our demise. Stop demonizing those who have achieved more than you. Jealousy and envy are destructive to the soul.

[sparrowhawk1]

Mark, please don't feed the troll

[Boatguy30]

As a proud capitalist, it's hard to believe that all is well with the "free market" when one sees the excesses lining the waterways of south florida.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by sparrowhawk1

Mark, please don't feed the troll

Sorry, I seem to keep falling into this trap recently - thinking the contributors are actually making an attempt, only to realize that they only really want to wind things up for whatever personal reasons they have.

Mark

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by rognvald

There is an unhealthy mentality among some in Western countries today to demonize those that have wealth and been successful in their lives. Whether it be stated or implied, it debases the freedom of people to pursue their own self-interests and excel based upon their given talents. It seeks to affirm that everyone is the same. It is not true. It is counter-nature. Wealth is an essential ingredient for the success of a nation. It is how America became the greatest superpower in the world. If we lose it, it will lead to our demise. Stop demonizing those who have achieved more than you. Jealousy and envy are destructive to the soul.

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but when the government is clearly being manipulated by money, and becomes hesitant in it's role as a market regulator and objective arbiter, it becomes less about competence and more about someone's thumb being on the scale.

I don't think everyone has the same skills, abilities, or drive, and we need a system that rewards those things. That's different, however, from a system that makes the rich richer at the expense of the people who are actually doing all the work.

There is a natural tendency for the powerful to try and rig the system. We need a government that is strong enough to prevent the system from being rigged. If we're not vigilant, ours may well support making the successful class too small and the dependent class too large, which won't really be good for anyone.

Of course this topic is much to complex to solve in a cruisers forum.

[sparrowhawk1]

Mark, you don't need to apologize. It was very hard for me not to respond to : how the wealthy and "successful" are demonized. Do you smell something? Oh crap here comes a troll!

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by sparrowhawk1

Mark, you don't need to apologize. It was very hard for me not to respond to : how the wealthy and "successful" are demonized. Do you smell something? Oh crap here comes a troll!

You forgot the part about them being better than the rest of us

[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by colemj

Sorry, I seem to keep falling into this trap recently - thinking the contributors are actually making an attempt, only to realize that they only really want to wind things up for whatever personal reasons they have.



Mark

Warning, off topic post...

I'll echo sentiment about no apologies needed. Specifically for me, I come to this forum as I see it as a valued topical resource that contains unique insights from those more experienced than myself. I've found an effective way for me is to scan for posts from a few forum members whom I see as experts, you are one of mine. Wading through hip deep troll crap wastes my time so I don't normally add to it. I understand it is seductive when directly responding to the troll.

Apologies for this latest off topic post.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Such a test exists in Florida - it is the Propulsion Test and it serves to eliminate the derelict, non navigable boats.

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Ok, we've been around and around on this.

Since you are in contact with someone making policy here are a few ideas.

"uscg" inspection is useless, you have to have what a bell, 3 flares, lifejackets and an anchorlight? Most derelicts have that or will get them fast.

Require all vessels to be operable as intended by manufactured. Sailboats must have masts and sails, inboard power vessels must have working inboard.

Require all boat be made ready for "navigation" in a reasonable time period. I suggest any vessel anchored needed to be able to get underway within 45 minutes of spot inspection. This is under own power and all anchors must be hauled within the timeframe.

The reality is cities don't want to deal with the hassles of these type of enforcements. Outright bans are easier to enforce. Fortunately navigation including anchoring will be hard to completely ban.

[CanuckSailorguy]

The Propulsion Test administered by the FWC is what you're thinking of. And the 4 hp on a 50 ton boat wouldn't pass the test.

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

I have a 9' whaler anchored in St Augustine currently. Has no means of propulsion onboard currently, but is likely the ONLY boat at anchor in full compliance with the city pilot program and displaying a city anchoring sticker.


I do not believe there is any current Florida law regarding means of propulsion whilst at anchor. Perhaps there should be, but if you hang a 4hp of a 50' Ferrocement ketch with no mast is that then legal?


Maybe the state needs to hire someone that actually knows something about boats to help draft some reasonable laws.

[CanuckSailorguy]

There is a turn in program to the FWC. The haul out idea is a good one.

Originally Posted by tdoster

I hate to say it, but I really don't mind the liability insurance rule, even though so many are against it.

Any boat anchoring or mooring more than 3 days in any one place (weather exclusions) must have proof of liability insurance which includes pollution mitigation and salvage.

I don't like the idea of not being inclusive to the budget cruisers and liveaboards, but sadly, the only way to ensure people clean up their mess is to actually hold them accountable for it.

From a State Standpoint, it would also be nice if Florida built haul out facilities that allowed inexpensive storage for boats on the hard, and a program similar to California with the turn in without consequence instead of abandoning. It would be a cleaner and more controlled environment with education.

Both of the above would allow people with limited funds to buy the cheap boat and dream, fix it up inexpensively and then cruise and liveaboard responsibly.


I don't like the idea of permits to anchor as that would just add more red tape for those of us who are really cruising. I don't mind being responsible for my actions, those of my crew, and any damage my boat may cause and that really is the nut of the problem.

[CanuckSailorguy]

You won't be parking on Collins Canal any more. The city tore out that dock to force the local liveaboards to move.

Originally Posted by Scott N.

As seasonal cruisers to Miami Beach, I would be in favor of a permit to "park" a dingy with some kind of reasonable fee attached if this would satisfy the "powers that be" to access Miami Beach. (Thinking this would be along the lines of putting money in a parking meter.) As seasonal cruisers we spend money....lots of money on groceries, fuel at the marina, movies, restaurants, wine, hardware, marine supplies, Best Buy, the list goes on and on. We have also had three occasions of couples visiting us in Miami Beach...not staying on our boat...but renting places in town and spending money on all of those things tourists do - hotel rooms, food, drink, and merchandise. Hope the City Council realizes that we park on Collins Canal in order to access the many retail establishments that are looking for customers to spend money on their goods and services. Miami Beach is a tourist destination....and we are tourists!!!!