Cal 22 roller furling problem

[SeaScrat]

I have a 1988 Cal 22 with a roller furling that has no markings and a setup that doesn't seem correct. Everyone I've asked at the boatyard (sailors, techs and old salts) don't really agree on what's going on with it.

The short of it... When I bought the boat, the owner had a piece of 10-gauge copper wire tied through the hole in that metal extension on the roller furling and the other end loosely looped/twisted to the lower port bow rail, so that metal extension was roughly locked into the 9-o'clock position on the port side. When I'd unfurl the jib, the wire would ride up the rail a bit, and and the metal extension would try to strain to reach the 11-o'clock position, and the jib was always getting jammed. I don't have pics of the way it was before, because it looked poorly done. I intended to put a block and short cable on there to make it look nice, if it was supposed to be that way. Problem is, I think he had it rigged wrong.

Some people have said that extension w/hole is supposed to have a small block on it. Others have said that's the place where you feed the line through back to the cockpit.

There is a circular stain around the top area of the hole, leading me to believe that at some point, something was fastened there. In the attached pics, I've run the line through that hole, but when I pull on that line, it really rubs hard on the sharp inside edge of the hole, which creates rope dust everywhere. Perhaps there used to be some kind of nylon grommet that had smooth/tapered sides???

Would appreciate any help in solving this problem, so I can launch her and sail before the Summer's gone.

Thanks.

[SeaScrat]

Here are some videosnaps of the disconnected roller furling with that wire. Might provide a different view to help in figuring out what's going on. In order to make the line guide better through that metal extension's hole and align more with the drum/spool, I had to push/bend the extension upward (mastward) because when I initially rotated the roller so the extension was facing aft, it was rubbing against the deck.

Incidentally, the first sailor I showed it to thought that metal extension arm had been bent downward and was wrong. A few moments later, after he kept looking at it, he somewhat changed his mind and thought perhaps it was designed that way to stay clear of the bottom of the drum/spool, to prevent it from rubbing on it.

Also, some thought it was made by Schaffer and others thought CDI.

Do you think there are bearings that can be cleaned and greased, because the thing squeaks a lot?

[UNCIVILIZED]

You might try bending that arm back up, & into better position. Along with running the line through a small block attached to the deck, instead of the current fairlead.
And when I say fairlead, I'm referring to the black plastic one on deck, perhaps 1' aft of the furler. As between it, & the stainless (bent down) lead arm that guides the line, they're creating huge amounts of friction in your system, & likely are binding things up.

Yes, some furling gear does have plastic guides/inserts in the stainless guide arm. And nothing says that you can't put one in there, though it'd be tricky. But you'd still have the problem of the line not having a fair lead (smooth angle) running from the furler down to the deck, & then aft. --> Which is critical to ease & reliability of furling.

Also, yeah, you might try attaching a block or low friction ring to the top of the stainless steel guide arm. But I'm thinking that while that may reduce friction some, part of the binding problem may be due to that arm's being able to freely rotate.
If it is free to do so, then it's contributing to the binding, as it'll be wanting to swivel around with the drum or sail. Resulting in the line having to fight this tendency to rotate. Thus, a way to fix it in place could be part of the solution.

And not being there to properly diagnose things, I hate to suggest spending $ needlessly. But it might also help to switch to a low friction line. Such as something that's Spectra/Dyneema cored, with the cover partially stripped off, & the cover tapered & spliced into the line's core.

Let us know about any new discoveries :-)

[SeaScrat]

Uncivilized, you might be able to make out a spring-loaded block a bit port and centered aft of the roller furling in pics 1 and 4. I had thought of running the line through there because I thought the same thing about a fairlead and friction, but I felt that putting it higher up would make the line rub more on the upper part of the hole on the extension arm. I'll give it a try tomorrow. It may have been there before. When I helped the previous owner unstep the mast, he removed that line, so I have no idea how it was run, and I can't contact him at the moment to ask. As I recall, that line ran down the starboard side and to that cam cleat on the side of the cabin. What fittings it was threaded to along the way I have no idea. At the moment (while not pictured) I have that line running starboard through the two black plastic eyes and the spring-loaded block near the cabin.

I also didn't want to go too crazy with bending that extension up too far, and since all the line was being spooled center-top of the drum (it wasn't being spooled evenly top-to-bottom) I thought have that arm higher towards the center, might make it do the same thing.

I was going to replace that jib sheet anyway, so I'll look into what you mentioned.

Thanks for the help.

BTW, I'm 100% new to sailing and have not sailed yet. I've only read books and talked with a lot of sailors. So, my jargon and way of explaining things may be rough or wrong.

[SeaScrat]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Also, yeah, you might try attaching a block or low friction ring to the top of the stainless steel guide arm. But I'm thinking that while that may reduce friction some, part of the binding problem may be due to that arm's being able to freely rotate.
If it is free to do so, then it's contributing to the binding, as it'll be wanting to swivel around with the drum or sail. Resulting in the line having to fight this tendency to rotate. Thus, a way to fix it in place could be part of the solution.

Are you saying that the arm might need to be secured (such as with a piece of 10-gauge wire that attaches to a nearby railing ) to prevent it from binding? I do get what you're saying, and I am seeing that arm swing around and putting stress on that sheet when I unfurl the jib. Maybe it does need to be anchored. And maybe part of the binding problem I experienced when first looking at the boat and testing the roller furling, is because the previous owner didn't have the arm anchored securely enough to where it would prevent the other metal retainer arms around the drum/spool from spinning and digging into the line. If that arm is anchored firmly, the three metal retainers can't rotate at all to interfere with the line to create friction and binding. Actually, since that arm used to be low and touching the deck, and has the widest, unobstructed, horizontal opening compared to the spacing of the three metal retainers, maybe it needs to be anchored dead center to allow for free movement and and out.

Maybe I need to bend it back down and find a way to anchor it in place with minimal movement. Maybe run a dual micro-block setup to each side of the bow rail to keep it centered. ???

[SeaScrat]

Moderator/Admin, please move this thread to the proper sub-forum, "Deck Hardware: Rigging, Sails..."

Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Thank you.

[UNCIVILIZED]

You're doing okay with descriptions. Better than many with lots of sailing time. If I get a moment later, I'll see how you're doing. But in the meantime, it couldn't hurt to get a few sailors opinions, live.
Bribery (with beer) usually works.

[SeaScrat]

I had a lot of ideas and I looked at some other boats and noticed one kind of similar to my setup, but its extension arm may not rotate the way mine does. Refer to pics. I also fully realize that some of the parts I was going to use to secure that arm would rust because they're not stainless steel. Just trying different things to see what would work the best and not look all that bad.

In the end, I used the K.I.S.S. Principle by using a single 3" stainless steel spring and hooked it to the most-aftward hole of a 3-hole bracket on the bow - it has three holes of increasing size that the forestay's clevis pin goes through...no idea what it's called.

So, now, the extension can't rotate more than about 3/16" in either direction. I'm still having a slight issue when unfurling the jib. If I don't pay attention and keep some tension on the spool line, it all becomes loose and rides up past the gaps between the spool retainers and the top of the spool, causing a jam.

Still not sure if it's correct, but it works without jamming. However, I've seen videos where the jib is furled and the line wraps around the jib a few times. I can't do even one wrap, because doing so makes it impossible for me to unfurl the jib later. I have to keep the cringle and a bit of the sail unfurled/exposed in order to let it out next time.

It's not super smooth to unfurl for the first rotation. It seems to really be stuck until I pull overly hard, then it spins freely. Maybe something's bent???

I wonder though, Uncivilized, in looking at that other boat's setup, if there's supposed to be some kind of eye mounted to that extension on mine that helps guide in the line. But, then, you're relying on the line to hold the extension in place, which seems kind of dumb.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SeaScrat

Still not sure if it's correct, but it works without jamming. However, I've seen videos where the jib is furled and the line wraps around the jib a few times. I can't do even one wrap, because doing so makes it impossible for me to unfurl the jib later. I have to keep the cringle and a bit of the sail unfurled/exposed in order to let it out next time.

It's not super smooth to unfurl for the first rotation. It seems to really be stuck until I pull overly hard, then it spins freely. Maybe something's bent???

I wonder though, Uncivilized, in looking at that other boat's setup, if there's supposed to be some kind of eye mounted to that extension on mine that helps guide in the line. But, then, you're relying on the line to hold the extension in place, which seems kind of dumb.

Our furler's drum looks almost identical to this:

Note the line guide, which is fixed to the lower part, and should stay in position, not turn with the drum. On the foredeck, maybe 14" back from the furler, is a SS fairlead that the furling line passes through, then a couple more loops or fairleads before the clam cleat.

Some ideas:
- we have no problem getting the sail fully furled with a couple wraps of the jibsheets as well. Is it possible that your furling line is just too thick and the drum gets full too soon?
- it's not uncommon for the line to throw a loop or jam on the drum if the sail comes out quickly and there's no back-tension on the line. We generally keep a little tension on the furling line when deploying the genoa.
- does your drum and top swivel spin freely? If you get dirt in them or the bearings are shot, rotation would be harder, obviously.

Good luck with this. Furling jibs are a great convenience.

[SeaScrat]

Lake_Effect, in an effort to reduce jams, I furled the jib, then unspooled a few turns of line to reduce the amount on the drum. It seemed to work much better, but now I don't have much left on the drum when the jib is fully furled. I bet I could simply push in those three vertical retainers around the drum, to they're closer to the top edge of the spool. That would close the gap and prevent the line from riding out and jamming.

BTW, even with the line reduced, it's still being spooled near the top. I don't think there's enough of a close low-angle fairlead for the line to track/spool properly or evenly. I think at least part of the trick is to have a proper guide, perhaps 1/2-2/3 the vertical distance of the height of the drum. Sorry, I'm thinking "aloud" now... But with the pics I've provided of the other boat's drum, its angle is very low and sharp. I think I've been looking at this all wrong. I'm trying to get the line to start spooling in the center, when I should be trying to get it to start spooling at the bottom. I think it's the natural tendency for the line to thread from the bottom, then track up, reach the top, ride over itself once, then get "pushed" back down and the cycle continues. What I've created is a situation where the line starts spooling in the middle, tracks to the top, hits the top, rides back down a little, hit the center starting point, then is kind of forced to track up again, so it never can reach the bottom. New things to try tomorrow.

So, with your drum, the guide doesn't spin freely beneath the drum? Is it more of a bracket that's fixed to the boat, and somewhere in the middle of the bracket there's a bearing/race assembly that the drum spins on?

In thinking about this again, I believe a threaded-stud w/U-shaped guide used to be attached to my extension arm. Maybe the purpose of that free-moving arm (when it has the guide on it) is to snap/tug the line at times when furling/unfurling to prevent slacking on the drum. I actually wouldn't mind line tension against a smooth, rounded post, such as on the one you showed a picture of.

I think I should take the whole thing apart, change the line to 1/4" (I think it's 5/16") and see what's causing the squeaking. Maybe there's something I can service.

The headstay (topstay?) of the roller furling has no drum, just a basic metal swivel.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SeaScrat

Lake_Effect, in an effort to reduce jams, I furled the jib, then unspooled a few turns of line to reduce the amount on the drum. It seemed to work much better, but now I don't have much left on the drum when the jib is fully furled. I bet I could simply push in those three vertical retainers around the drum, to they're closer to the top edge of the spool. That would close the gap and prevent the line from riding out and jamming.

When the jib is fully furled and you have your 2 or 3 wraps of the jibsheet as well, you don't need to have any line left on the drum. Furled is furled.

BTW, even with the line reduced, it's still being spooled near the top. I don't think there's enough of a close low-angle fairlead for the line to track/spool properly or evenly. I think at least part of the trick is to have a proper guide, perhaps 1/2-2/3 the vertical distance of the height of the drum. Sorry, I'm thinking "aloud" now... But with the pics I've provided of the other boat's drum, its angle is very low and sharp. I think I've been looking at this all wrong. I'm trying to get the line to start spooling in the center, when I should be trying to get it to start spooling at the bottom.

The alignment of our setup sort of aims the line at the bottom of the drum, but with the deck guide some 14" away from the drum, the angle doesn't change a whole lot as the line rides up and down the drum.

So, with your drum, the guide doesn't spin freely beneath the drum? Is it more of a bracket that's fixed to the boat, and somewhere in the middle of the bracket there's a bearing/race assembly that the drum spins on?

Correct; the guide is attached to the lower end of the drum bearing which is secured to the bow. So the guide always points straight back, is not really free to rotate on its own.

I think that a guide that's free to pivot would be ok as long as the "arm" it's on is long enough to be controlled by the tension on the furling line.

In thinking about this again, I believe a threaded-stud w/U-shaped guide used to be attached to my extension arm. Maybe the purpose of that free-moving arm (when it has the guide on it) is to snap/tug the line at times when furling/unfurling to prevent slacking on the drum. I actually wouldn't mind line tension against a smooth, rounded post, such as on the one you showed a picture of.

... makes sense.

The headstay (topstay?) of the roller furling has no drum, just a basic metal swivel.

Same with ours - just a swivel, but it should be free and easy to turn.

Sounds like you're on the road to resolving the furling issues

[SeaScrat]

Here's a good shot of the current angle going from the nylon fairlead to the drum. The line is favoring starting in the middle, mainly due to where it must feed into one of the drum holes to be secured.

With a little tweaking, I've managed to adjust things where I can get two line wraps around the jibsheet when furled, and it opens fine with no wind, so I'm probably going to leave well-enough alone and move onto something else, such as replacing the main sheet, since the current one is dark gray with some kind of messy grease residue. I think the previous owner greased the sheaves at some point. I've soaked that line in Woolite and Simple Green for a few days, then scrubbed the hell out of it, but it's still leaving a mess on my hands and deck. Would it do any good (or harm) if I were to soak a sacrificial line in gasoline or mineral spirits, then run it back and forth through the mast to try to clean the sheaves before I run the new line? Or am I asking for more problems?

Oh, and I didn't take any pictures of the process, but I cleaned that headstay swivel using a gin pole, a mason's string and some duct tape. To clean it off, I taped a can of carb cleaner to the top of the gin pole (it evaporates fast so won't drip down the shroud) stapled the mason's string near the top of one side of pole, ran it over the can's spray nozzle and secured it with a piece of duct tape, then ran the line back down the bottom of the pole. I used binoculars on a tripod to aim the can at the swivel, then I'd pull the string to create short bursts to blast off gunk. I think that's what helped to solve my unfurling issue. I didn't oil or grease the swivel because I don't think it would really last in the salt air. Just de-gunking it I felt was more useful.

BTW, is the spring block just aft of the roller furling drum used for the spinnaker?

Thanks for the help.

[mrm]

Originally Posted by SeaScrat

Do you think there are bearings that can be cleaned and greased, because the thing squeaks a lot?

It really shouldn't squeak. If you have time, consider taking the roller apart and clean/grease those bearings. If you don't have time - still consider it

Besides that, I see two problems with your current setup. One relates to geometry - when locating a fair lead for roller line one should aim for a straight angle between the drum surface and the line - that condition is not met in your case. See red line on the attached picture. Perhaps consider using a small block attached to pullpit stanchion near the black 'X' mark?

Another problem is that bent part of the rope cage. It should be straight (see blue line on pic.) and the rope should be led through that hole. It is meant to be a final rope lead before the drum.. In most designs I have seen, the cage is allowed some rotational movement and will naturally align to the path rope takes when tensioned.

Finally, operating procedures. I was taught, that for the fully controlled furling/unfurling process, one should always keep some tension in both the furling line and the sheet involved. I.e. never allow any slack in any of them during (un)furling. So far this method worked for me very well.

Hope this will help get you going.
Fair winds

[SeaScrat]

Originally Posted by mrm

Besides that, I see two problems with your current setup. One relates to geometry - when locating a fair lead for roller line one should aim for a straight angle between the drum surface and the line - that condition is not met in your case. See red line on the attached picture. Perhaps consider using a small block attached to pullpit stanchion near the black 'X' mark?

mrm, I completely agree that the line's angle to the drum is not ideal, and that it needs to be pulled or pushed down by something to create better alignment for spooling. I've already thought of putting a low-profile eyelet through that extension hole, while still keeping the extension arm anchored with the current spring using the threaded end of whatever eyelet I use. But, you could be 100% correct: Those arms might need to rotate freely in order to achieve the optimal alignment of pull from whichever side of the boat the line is being run down, or through wherever there nearest fairlead is. Without that freedom of movement, you're forcing the line to zig-zag through a specific path, rather than allow it to seek its best alignment for the load.

Originally Posted by mrm

Another problem is that bent part of the rope cage. It should be straight (see blue line on pic.) and the rope should be led through that hole. It is meant to be a final rope lead before the drum.. In most designs I have seen, the cage is allowed some rotational movement and will naturally align to the path rope takes when tensioned.

Refer to the attached pics which somewhat show what I mean... The only problem I see with that theory is, the angle bend beneath the spool on that extension arm is not the same as the angle bend on the three vertical retainers. i.e. Their bends start well outside of the outer edge of the bottom of the drum, whereas the extension arm's bend starts almost even with the outer bottom edge of the drum. If I were to bend that extension to the point in your diagram, not only would I be forcing a bend that I truly think never existed, but the bend area would be rubbing against the lower edge underside of the drum, pretty much crushing the bottom edge of the drum and rendering it unable to spin. Now, I could push the entire extension upward as I'd done before, but that created jam problems. So far, having it anchored center aft has made it work smoothly, at least on the hard. Maybe with wind it won't work.

Appreciate all the ideas, and I'll continue to think about everything and will probably modify it again.

BTW, I am changing that line, which will force me to take apart the drum to expose the innards, where I can then maintain any serviceable parts.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by SeaScrat

With a little tweaking, I've managed to adjust things where I can get two line wraps around the jibsheet when furled, and it opens fine with no wind, so I'm probably going to leave well-enough alone and move onto something else, such as replacing the main sheet, since the current one is dark gray with some kind of messy grease residue. I think the previous owner greased the sheaves at some point. I've soaked that line in Woolite and Simple Green for a few days, then scrubbed the hell out of it, but it's still leaving a mess on my hands and deck. Would it do any good (or harm) if I were to soak a sacrificial line in gasoline or mineral spirits, then run it back and forth through the mast to try to clean the sheaves before I run the new line? Or am I asking for more problems?

Oh, and I didn't take any pictures of the process, but I cleaned that headstay swivel using a gin pole, a mason's string and some duct tape. To clean it off, I taped a can of carb cleaner to the top of the gin pole (it evaporates fast so won't drip down the shroud) stapled the mason's string near the top of one side of pole, ran it over the can's spray nozzle and secured it with a piece of duct tape, then ran the line back down the bottom of the pole. I used binoculars on a tripod to aim the can at the swivel, then I'd pull the string to create short bursts to blast off gunk. I think that's what helped to solve my unfurling issue. I didn't oil or grease the swivel because I don't think it would really last in the salt air. Just de-gunking it I felt was more useful.

BTW, is the spring block just aft of the roller furling drum used for the spinnaker?

Thanks for the help.

Daaamn! With the gin pole thing, & that kind of ingenuity, you'd make a handy addition to any crew! No joke.
Put that on your sailing resume, & I'm not kidding. It'll land you a lot of invites.

It sounds like you'll have her (the boat) dialed in any time now. And even with things a bit out of tune, you can take her out for a spin, so long as the basics are working.

Me, I wouldn't try soaking a line in flammable solvents, & then snaking them through blocks & sheaves. Sound like a recipe for a Tim Allen, "Home Improvement" type accident. LOL

Good luck, & thanks for the updates!

PS: Yes, a smaller diameter furling line might assist things. And as said before, stripping the cover on many types of lines is an option. As well as doing the same to the core on some, if the lines don't see much load.
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