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Old 19-07-2021, 21:02   #46
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Pack 2 View Post
First, only buy American lithium’s with a descent warranty like Relion. I have the 38 leopard with 600 AH, you may look at 900 ah at that size, Victron energy inverter and solar, lithium’s must be charged properly, solar 1200 ah minimum. If you see a company called electromaxx, run away! Their lithium batteries lasted 3 months. Wayermaker can wait until you’re actually ready to live off grid.
Sure all tips you gave rises cost where not needed.
Lithium: get 840AH Lishen or eve cells and build it yourself, for 2000
Inverter :giandel cost 25% and are as good as Victron
Solar get 3 panels Longli 365W bifacial for 450Euro and a Victron 85A MPPT solar charger
Watermaker Seawater 65l pro for 3000 and cannot wait.
Thats all tme easy shopping part
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Old 19-07-2021, 23:04   #47
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by sv Stella Maris View Post
...we spent about $60k doing 95% of the work ourselves turning a 2 year old perfect shape day charter use only 2016 production sailing catamaran into a full time ocean capable cruiser (in 2018/2019)(no diesel genset or aircon or tv). All necessary functional equipment for a large family full time.

I hate this term ‘blue water’ cruiser. Production cats are NOT sustainable ‘blue water’ boats, period...most boats are NOT. Yes, you can cross an ocean in a bathtub. Survival and sustaining are two different beasts.

Don’t buy a darn thing until you’ve lived aboard a while. Then sleep on most purchases for a few months !

Not sure what you mean by “blue water” cruiser? Why are production cats not sustainable “blue water” boats???
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Old 19-07-2021, 23:37   #48
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

Because he's in a Lagoon 450....
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Old 20-07-2021, 00:18   #49
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by bergmd View Post
I'm buying a Leopard 48 ex charter and will have a limited budget to make it a full time live aboard. I want to make it blue-water capable but where do I start? My plan was to sail it to the US to avoid shipping costs of batteries, solar panels, etc. I plan on doing all the installations myself with a budget of 10-15k.

What are the necessity items that need to be purchased and in what order? Obviously a dinghy first. It has a generator that will need replacing soon.

Spares?
Bigger Anchor?
Tools?
Watermaker?
Electronics?


Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
So, you plan to buy a 48ft cat and have no clue what the boat needs to cross an ocean?
First there isn't enough info on the inventory
Secondly define 'blue water capable'
Thirdly 15K won't get you far
Anyway, best of luck
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Old 20-07-2021, 00:26   #50
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I just did this last year with a phaseout Leopard 44.

$30k up front to fix survey issues, and additional issues I found that the surveyor missed.

Spares, YES.
Electronics - You will want a good MFD, Wind, depth, speed, GPS, Radar, etc... (to replace the whole kit cost me around $5k, but I didn't skimp. $3K would have done it with basics.
Bigger anchor? NO, the original 30lb plow is more than sufficient for MY needs. Thinking about getting a new Mantis, or other high tech, but the one I have works great.
Watermaker? On my to do list. Onboard water tanks are plenty until we do an Atlantic crossing, and even then if we ration. (Currently use water like we're on shore, and run out in 2.5 weeks, but have lasted as much as a month).
Solar cells the ones it came with were barely enough even with one hour of generator per day.

Generator - YES, I found life very hard when it crapped out. batteries died in two days, solar couldn't keep up.

Stopped halfway to delivery destination to retrofit additional items that failed in route, (not found in survey).

Batteries, generator, solar panels, water pump, bilge pump, rudder tubes.

ADDITIONAL $20k Bringing total to $50K.

Boats was $100k off of the next closest boat, and available immediately, and there is definitely a shortage of catamarans on the market.

I'm about to drop ANOTHER $8-10K on shipyard for annual maintenance, and bottom job a year later after a year of active cruising.

I ended up replacing the standing rigging, (furler broken, stress marks on shrouds, bent chainplate, bent lifeline post, refiberglassing some dock "rash")

Generator was used hard, and put away wet, required new exhaust elbow, cooling pump, (after frying several impellors), and new raw water pump.

New filters, belts, hose clamps everywhere on the boat. Not only were they, old, but also cheap.

And check engine compartments thoroughly for debris. a piece of cable cover came loose, and jammed the float on a bilge pump.

Oh by the way, carry spare fuses, They are the mini BUss fuses that are hard to find, (not the regular ones).

Spare 1/2 inch raw water pump. I ended up using a bait tank pump, and adaptor.

Check the shower drain hoses, every one on my boat had chaffed, and were leaking.

AND last, but not least toilet rebuild kits, plan on replacing them ALL.
Badly abused quietflush were on mine, and every toilet failed during delivery.

Batteries, plan on new ones, I spend $3k on AGM's, I'm not rich enough for lithium's.


But a decent boat, and I'm very happy with the results, even my wife enjoys it now, which makes it all worthwhile.

A rule of thumb is maintenance is 10% of the boats value per year.

First year I exceeded that, but this year, and next year should be a third of that.

The stock sails that came with it were serviceable, and adequate. (New Jib $6K for basic, Main more than $12K is the lowest bid so far).

Ropes for running rigging were surprisingly expensive. I've been replacing them with climbing Dacron for less than half the price. (same test load, UV stabilized) for sheets since I can replace as they fail)

West Marine price for Main Halyard 200ft (up 70ft, down 70ft, then to cockpit), $1,063.00 + tax.

That is on a Leopard 44.

Add a couple hundred more each for a L48

Not a lot as far as boat bucks, but don't forget this expense. Spinnaker, Jib, Main, plus 8 sheets, Boom topping lift, Jibe preventer, and extra to get back to cockpit 20ft back, it all adds up. So far I've spent more on rope than the entire cost of my first sailboat.

Good luck, but double or triple your cost to fix up.

$15K simply isn't enough for a above 40ft boat, even if it is in "perfect" condition.

Oh, and have a rigger check ALL the rigging. hard to see damage under furler, and chaff tubes on shrouds. You can bet a charter tourist hit the shrouds with the boom, at least once.
1,063$ for a halyard?
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Old 20-07-2021, 00:41   #51
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by johnnyH View Post
I respectfully submit that there is a lot of advice that makes me shake my head. Negotiate hard and buy as much boat as you can afford, always remembering that even if you sell it at the same price you bought it for you are going to take a 10% loss because of the broker's fee. Be as comfortable as you can be instead of being cramped in a sardine size boat. The more waterline you have the better it will sail . There will be more comfort and equipment and space to store provisions to make life comfortable. Other than dock fees, insurance and perhaps a little more paint for a bottom job there is not an appreciable difference with equipment cost. One thing that I will suggest is dont go any wider than a 25 foot beam because finding a boat yard with the equipment needed for a a haul out might more challenging to find. Enjoy your boat


This is not good advice

Mast , ground tackle , winches , line diameters , engine size ,

Most things go up with boat size. It’s absolutely nonsense to max your budget on buying the boat and then you can’t upgrade or run it or maintain it properly
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Old 20-07-2021, 09:27   #52
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by bergmd View Post
@alctel I am not considering a smaller boat. I would like as much waterline as I can afford. What in your opinion are the major cost differences? The difference between a 40' vs 48? Other than the obvious increase in bottom paint, haul out, and cleaning the hull. My last boat was a 46' Bahia and was not bad at all.
It's basically due to force - sail area does not go up linearly with size. Just quickly using google a lagoon 40 (38' long) has an upwind sail area of 875 ft² while a lagoon 50 (48') has an upwind sail area of 1,700ft, despite being only 20% larger.

If you run the calculations on that, you'll see that the forces are waaaay greater, this means all the hardware needs to be sized up - turnbuckles, shackles, deck fittings, shrouds, winches, anchor, pendant and lines (both in length and thickness), not to mention the sails themselves and a bunch of other things I have probably forgotten. Not to mention the stuff you said as well.

It really adds up and I wouldn't be surprised if the costs are at LEAST double for that extra 8 foot, if not more. Not a problem if you are one of those people who are rich with 3 rental properties and a pension, but if you are on only a 15k refit budget you are going to run into difficulties.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyH View Post
I respectfully submit that there is a lot of advice that makes me shake my head. Negotiate hard and buy as much boat as you can afford, always remembering that even if you sell it at the same price you bought it for you are going to take a 10% loss because of the broker's fee. Be as comfortable as you can be instead of being cramped in a sardine size boat. The more waterline you have the better it will sail . There will be more comfort and equipment and space to store provisions to make life comfortable. Other than dock fees, insurance and perhaps a little more paint for a bottom job there is not an appreciable difference with equipment cost. One thing that I will suggest is dont go any wider than a 25 foot beam because finding a boat yard with the equipment needed for a a haul out might more challenging to find. Enjoy your boat
There is the 'buy the biggest boat you can afford' crowd, and the 'buy the smallest boat you can live with and does what you want it to' crowd and I am firmly in the latter. And as I said above, I think you are wrong on the equipment cost.
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Old 21-07-2021, 08:00   #53
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

I bought my Leopard through Moorings and sailed it across Caribbean through the canal and up to Seattle. With only basic upgrades and expenses it cost me about 60K. I did it with a focus on safety. Their “phase-out” process is a joke as it took me a lot of extra work to get the boat ready for the crossing. Happy to send a complete list of upgrades with costs that we kept for tax purposes. A few things to think about…. Certifying the life raft (mine was irreparable), EPIRB, Sat Phone, Radar, jacklines/harnesses, tools and spares (boat comes with none). At some point you’ll have to get detail oriented and start thinking adhesives, lubricants, tapes, hose clamps, spare fuses, spare navigation bulbs, etc., but that stuff is small and fun to buy.

I was able to find people willing to help install upgrades, but bought most of equipment in US and just flew it over. Just fyi, electronics upgrades installed in BVI will not likely be warrantied, I took that risk and was satisfied with the work I oversaw.

Last thing… the longer the boat sits on the phase-out dock the more likely it will be used for parts to get other boats released. When I picked up mine, found all kinds of stuff missing that were there for the survey…. Door handles, fenders, spare halyard, life lines were missing. How did they replace? They just grabbed them off the boat next door and said get out of here.

Good luck,
Mike
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Old 21-07-2021, 08:35   #54
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by schiehser View Post

Last thing… the longer the boat sits on the phase-out dock the more likely it will be used for parts to get other boats released. When I picked up mine, found all kinds of stuff missing that were there for the survey…. Door handles, fenders, spare halyard, life lines were missing. How did they replace? They just grabbed them off the boat next door and said get out of here.

Good luck,
Mike
Simple request them to put everything that was in the survey back in 3 days and confirm this in written and if they refuse call police and file a theft claim against the local station and to the responsible station manager in person, not some holding in Maledives or somewhere. They stole from you and done this in person locally. You have the survey as proof and as long it’s not handed over its their obligation to have it complete as in survey and hand it over like this. That’s why your surveyor should be there for the handover too. Make this clear to them and note it also in the sales contract. Dealing with a ex charter, have your surveyor and lawyer on call to act quick and hit hard, that’s the only language they understand.

I made this clear to lovely Jerry from Dreamyactcharter when approaching him for a Mahe and he immediately backed up on the sale. clear what that means and you can expect to find a parted out boat you pick up and not was surveyed...well on the quick pre survey half of the inventory was missing already and confronting Jerry with this he said it was in use while on sale and you buy what you get on handover....so you have to agree to price based on survey and then get a surprise box on handover...how desperate do you have to be to buy a boat like this...
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Old 21-07-2021, 08:48   #55
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by bergmd View Post
I'm buying a Leopard 48 ex charter and will have a limited budget to make it a full time live aboard. I want to make it blue-water capable but where do I start? My plan was to sail it to the US to avoid shipping costs of batteries, solar panels, etc. I plan on doing all the installations myself with a budget of 10-15k.

What are the necessity items that need to be purchased and in what order? Obviously a dinghy first. It has a generator that will need replacing soon.

Spares?
Bigger Anchor?
Tools?
Watermaker?
Electronics?


Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Do any of the things you've listed work? If so leave it alone and focus on what other things you might require. Today's consumerism will have you believe otherwise but if it ain't broke don't touch it as its probably been abused beyond what an individual owner would ever subject it to.
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Old 21-07-2021, 08:53   #56
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
1,063$ for a halyard?
Yeah. My thoughts exactly. I went to the local marine store that provides for the fishermen in the area. Bought some decent line for much less money than the fancy sailing places ask and learned to do it myself. Takes about fifteen minutes to complete a halyard. All of mine cost far less than this number.
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Old 21-07-2021, 08:56   #57
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Re: Buying Leopard Ex-charter: What do I spend my $ on first?

If these are the questions the OP is asking, then my answer is simple...

Learn how to sail. If you don't know what tools you need or electronics and are asking these questions it is the captain who is currently not prepared for the venture, not the boat.
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