Buying Boat Gear Just Got More Expensive

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Happy Canada Day … and the official launch of Canada’s retaliatory tariffs. As of today a whole bunch of American boaty stuff is now more expensive for us Canucks. Somehow, I don’t feel like celebrating.



Agreed. While I appreciate the basic idea that government should spend tax dollars wisely and efficiently, the whole concept of treating government like a business is fundamentally flawed. It seems almost trite to say, but government and businesses are set up to do different things. They have different purposes, and different goals. So this whole notion of treating citizens like customers (or worse, consumers), and demanding that government treat tax revenue like income from selling widgets is simply wrong.

I disagree, they have exactly the same purpose "to serve". Good businesses serve their customers well, they provide services and products that people need.

To many people have a chip on their shoulders regarding businesses, yet happily utilise everything they provide daily. Good businesses understand what business is about, it's about serving and providing, profit follows.

I'm not suggesting governments need to make a profit BUT they need to stay solvent.

Please explain to me how governments being financially irresponsible by not managing their funds correctly helps the people they serve? Should the people just chip in more money to compensate for their incompetence?

Your philosophies are admirable just not realistic. You need to manage your funds responsibly (or there's consequences) , businesses need to manage their funds responsibly why don't governments?

BTW the US sovereign debt has gone from approximately 8 trillion in 2008 to 22 trillion now, that's OK because they aren't a business?

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by daletournier

BTW, I sense a anti business sentiment? You ever have a job? That's what business's do, employ people.

Unfortunately it's culturally cool and a hip value signaling in vouge display at the moment Dale to dislike business. The problem is without business there is no profit, without profit there is no tax revenue and without tax revenue there are no social programs that those that dislike business are fond or promoting and utilizing. So it's a self destructive and self defeating position to be "anti-business". But alas in today's world where logical throught is looked at as hate speech, I even risk my business reputation by going out on a limb and defending the business community. The next thing you know I can be attacked by the twitter/FakeBook/Outrage Mod and ran out of town. Just ask the ladies that opened a burrito shop in Seattle but were harassed and shut down for Cultural Appropriation. It seems two white women can't open a burrito restaurant without it being some sort of hate-crime the social justice mob feels compelled to squash.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Unfortunately it's culturally cool and a hip value signaling in vouge display at the moment Dale to dislike business. The problem is without business there is no profit, without profit there is no tax revenue and without tax revenue there are no social programs that those that dislike business are fond or promoting and utilizing. So it's a self destructive and self defeating position to be "anti-business". But alas in today's world where logical throught is looked at as hate speech, I even risk my business reputation by going out on a limb and defending the business community. The next thing you know I can be attacked by the twitter/FakeBook/Outrage Mod and ran out of town. Just ask the ladies that opened a burrito shop in Seattle but were harassed and shut down for Cultural Appropriation. It seems two white women can't open a burrito restaurant without it being some sort of hate-crime the social justice mob feels compelled to squash.

Unfortunately I think your correct. I literally just paided this morning 78k aud in Capital gains tax. This is on the sale of my business that I built over a 18 year period. It supplied 18 jobs and served 1500 customers. That business recieved zero support from any form of government over the years yet paided 100's of thousands of dollars in taxes enables dozens of employs over the years to pay taxes, has contributed ten of thousands of dollars to employees retirement funds, spend 100's of thousands with other businesses that supply jobs for many etc etc. How in anyway is this not a fantastic thing for the community???

And I should add that 78k is alot of money to me, yet this is what I contributed today without complaint, the people that knock business, how much have you contributed today?

BTW I'm as blue collar as anyone on this site, born in the suburbs, failed school at 15, labourer , motor mechanic, bouncer then business owner..... the only privilege I had was being born in a wonderful country that had opportunities. I just don't cop the whole hand out, bag out businesses, poor me, while waiting for my pension mindset.

To bring this back on topic, I stand by my comment regarding governments have an absolute responsibility to manage money well on our behalf, stay solvent, to say other wise is to not understand money or responsibility.

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Ah no.....
Why do I know that?
Because I sell water makers to Canadians monthly and they always ask me to ship to a mail drop for the expressed purpose of saving on Taxes. So you can live in your fantasy world that Canadians somehow like their higher taxes and are happy to pay them while the ugly Americans are always trying to avoid them. But as someone who ships water makers and refrigeration systems around the world...NOPE...people are the same everywhere. They all take active steps to avoid paying Taxes.

Now having a store here in Mexico that sells cruising gear to cruisers...how many Cruisers smuggle boat parts in to Countries around the world to avoid the Duty/Taxes? Almost ALL of US. So rather than paying the 16% in Mexico or the 50% in the Bahamas to "help the locals" Cruisers SMUGGLE in their Parts.....so please put away the smugness that we all want to pay our fair share for the Good of Humanity...ha ha ha... because the reality on the ground Trumps the talk on Chat Rooms.

Wow! you surely do seem to have a chip on your shoulder Third, I don't quite understand why, but from where I sit it is very visible.

When you comment about people 'evading' taxes I think you should be ready to defend that comment. I believe every person has a responsibility to pay their due taxes, but I also believe we have an equal duty to both ourselves & our families, to NOT pay more taxes than we are legally required to pay. There is a difference you know.

You yourself have stated, "there will always be cheaters" … & that applies to all, no matter which side of the 49th we live. We know & recognise this but, generally speaking, I also believe the majority of folk are, or want to be, both honest & above board in their dealings, whether that be doing everyday business or paying our due taxes. If nothing else 'Third', a great many of us probably stay honest simply because we recognise we are not clever enough or smart enough to hoodwink the government ... particularly in this new age of computer technology whereby "they" know more about us, than we know about ourselves.

As for your customers requesting you falsify an invoice, I wish to point out you didn't say if you complied with that request, but I would venture to say if you did (provide a false receipt) then you yourself become complicit in the falsification & will certainly be charged as such; being a businessman, I believe you would not only be held responsible for your actions but probably pay a much larger penalty into the bargain.

Many years ago when first I started into business, I took a customer to court hoping to recover payment for a very large bill for goods purchased over the course of a couple of months, which he paid for with a cheque that my bank subsequently returned as having "NSF" (non sufficient funds), putting my fledgling business in jeopardy. The judge was not kind to me at all. He basically held me responsible because in his words, "you foolishly accepted a worthless piece of paper instead of hard cash." ... In fact, he even suggested he should charge ME with wasting both his time, & that of the court ... that's what becomes of trusting your fellow man … that was a pretty harsh education for me, but I didn't let it sour me on other good customers who paid their accounts on time with valid cheques.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I disagree, they have exactly the same purpose "to serve". Good businesses serve their customers well, they provide services and products that people need.

To many people have a chip on their shoulders regarding businesses, yet happily utilise everything they provide daily. Good businesses understand what business is about, it's about serving and providing, profit follows.

I'm not suggesting governments need to make a profit BUT they need to stay solvent.

Please explain to me how governments being financially irresponsible by not managing their funds correctly helps the people they serve? Should the people just chip in more money to compensate for their incompetence?

Your philosophies are admirable just not realistic. You need to manage your funds responsibly (or there's consequences) , businesses need to manage their funds responsibly why don't governments?

BTW the US sovereign debt has gone from approximately 8 trillion in 2008 to 22 trillion now, that's OK because they aren't a business?

As I’ve taken pains to say, I think gvt SHOULD operate within its means. So lets take that canard off the table.

The primary purpose of any business in a capitalist market economy (there are other ways to organize an economy, but that’s not us) is to make profit. Businesses do this by selling a product or service people will buy, but that is secondary to the main purpose — it’s essential, but that’s not the main purpose. And yes, I speak as a small business owner of over 30 years.

Government is fundamentally a different beast. Yes, it provides essential services, but the primary purpose is not to create a profit, but to create a functional, civil society. These are fundamentally different purposes. It’s something we used to easily understand — something your USA founding fathers understood well — but it has been lost in the tidal wave of “me politics” and the loss of any sense of the common good. This, btw, is at the core of why gvts like the USA are so deeply in debt. Everyone wants their cake, but no one wants to pay for it.

You claim my philosophies are admirable, but not realistic. That’s utterly and demonstrably wrong. MOST of the world operates this way, including the USA. No functioning government actually operates like business. You’d have to look at the failed states like Somalia to find one that fits your philosophy.

In reality, I don’t think we’re that far apart on this Dale. We both agree, you need to operate within your means,. I suspect your real beef is that gvts can get away with not doing so for a lot longer than market-driven businesses. On that I would agree with you. I do think we’re all headed for a big cliff when the US debt comes due. Canada faced its own debt crisis about 20 years ago. There were headline in the NY Times proclaiming Canada bankrupt — and we were. But we managed to pull back from that brink through severe fiscal action that hurt for a while, and was politically suicidal for the government. But they/we did it. It just takes political will — something that seems in diminishing supply everywhere in the Western world these days (including in Canada).

[daletournier]

Hi Mike, business is alot more than just profit. Profit is a result of doing many things right. The most successful business people I know created and served, which was followed by profit. I'll never be able to explain this to the group that see business, capatilism and profit as an evil thing. BTW I also said it's not a governments job to make a profit. If you take the profit part away then there are many similarities between governments and businesses, it's just governments aren't very good at it, because they have no skin in the game.

If you keep your eye on the profit, you’re going to skimp on the product. But if you focus on making really great products, then the profits will follow.

Steve Jobs

Hundreds of thousands of small businesses "serve" the masses everyday.

As you said, we probably aren't that far apart on our views in this area. Let's leave it at we both agree that governments should manage the money entrusted to them responsibly, which means allocating correctly and making sure there's some in the kitty for a rainy day.

On a side note it seems Canadas sovereign debt is relatively low, like Australias, BUT like Australia your household debt is out of control.

So I'm assuming your not a Ann Rand fan.. Lol.

[Mike OReilly]

Just came across this news clip showing growth of all forms of global debt: household, gvt and corporate. We all seem to be on a debt binge:

https://youtu.be/Z-E_4GqfFvg

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Just came across this news clip showing growth of all forms of global debt: household, gvt and corporate. We all seem to be on a debt binge:

https://youtu.be/Z-E_4GqfFvg

I watch this stuff daily. If people truly understood what was happening they would be terrified. It can only end one way, the data is in and the math don't lie. Completely unsustainable. I've spent alot of time looking for the opposing argument, the proof that the numbers don't matter, it's not there.

It's bigger than just the debt. Most don't understand money and fractional reserve banking, I know I didn't (maybe still don't).

It's not just government debt and household debt, look at the bond markets and the size of the derivative markets. Very scary numbers. We are also still near record low interest rates around the world coming to the end of one of the longest economic expansions in history.

Our paperwealth is very fragile, created by easy monetary policy and crazy amounts of stimulus around the world such as QE over the last decade (actually two decades). Historical times.

There's some extremely credible people talking about this.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Mike, business is alot more than just profit. Profit is a result of doing many things right. The most successful business people I know created and served, which was followed by profit. I'll never be able to explain this to the group that see business, capatilism and profit as an evil thing. BTW I also said it's not a governments job to make a profit. If you take the profit part away then there are many similarities between governments and businesses, it's just governments aren't very good at it, because they have no skin in the game.

Agreed, we’re not far apart on this. But I just gotta say, I do not think business, capitalism and profit are an evil thing. No where have I suggested that (I’m a business owner after all). All I’ve said is that the main purpose of gvt and business is fundamentally different. Business seeks profit. They do it by providing a valued product or service. Gvt seeks a successful society. They are not the same thing, even though they can overlap in some functions.

Perhaps a simple illustration will help. Both government and businesses build roads and highways. But businesses only build roads which they can profit from. Governments build roads to service the needs of the people, irrespective of whether the local usage can pay for it. If government operated like a business there’d be no roads (or indeed any services) to huge areas of your country and mine. Of course this would lead to civil unrest, which again goes back to the difference between the two. AND it’s why gvt should not be operated like a business.

Gvt can certainly learn from business, and vis versa I would say, But it is a mistake to view or treat them as the same.

Yes … Canadian households are borrowing like there’s no tomorrow. We didn’t suffer the same shock during the 2008 US housing crisis, but with money nearly “free” people have been piling on the debt. It’s a bad sign in my opinion.

You’re typing faster than me ;-) It is scary stuff. It’s part of the reason I’ve gone sailing...

[daletournier]

I won't debate further regarding government failure and how they should be more business like, we have some common ground, I'm happy with that[emoji3]

The debt level quoted in the link is huge. Now add in unfunded liabities and see what the figure comes to.

Regarding corporate debt due to cheap money this also effects the stock market through company share buy backs. Stock markets are historically over valued currently if you listen to the likes of Robert shiller (p/e ratio). Actually over valued by most metrics.

I do agree governments could learn something from business, not sure business can learn from government
(couldnt help myself).

[daletournier]

Mike, something else we agree on, it's one of the main reasons I went sailing and cashed in. Hope I'm wrong.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Mike, something else we agree on, it's one of the main reasons I went sailing and cashed in. Hope I'm wrong.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

It looks like the Days of Tax Free Internet Sales are about to end with this Supreme Court Ruling today.

https://apnews.com/332abb7455cb4b60b...-pay-sales-tax

So you can add from 7% to 10% to your online purchases that were once Tax Free.

Actually, it really doesn't. Most states (I live in MD) legally require you to pay the tax yourself. However, like tips, most people ignore the law and don't pay the taxes. This just makes it easier to do what you should have been doing (and harder to not....).


Fair disclosure -- I've been ignoring the law too.....


Harry

[Bob Morane]

I don't get this Businesses vs Governments debate at all.
They are both necessary entities and can both be beneficial or destructive.


A successful business providing entertainment to millions and jobs to thousands is to be celebrated.
A business suddenly upping their prices by 1100% on a life saving medicine or pouring chemicals in a lake is not to be celebrated.

A government carefully managing their finances,providing efficient social services and education to everybody is to be celebrated.
A government mismanaging their finances with no accountability or even corruption is not to be celebrated.

They have to be judged individually according to their achievements, not by virtue of what they are.
Same applies for people.