Buy with all the work done or pay to have it done?

[JohnParkerSJ]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

Walk on the docks and observe the boats. See what appeals to your eye. Things to look for: where are the sail controls? Can you reach them from the helm, specifically trimming the main sheet and traveler? How easy is the boat to single hand? What is the visibility forward from the cockpit? How many winches and are they located where you can get to them while helming? Think about this as you will be the only one running the boat, and how it's laid out to facilitate that.

You have a family. Everybody will need their own spot. That puts you in the 3 cabin layout minimally. Look for reasonable tankage...water, waste, and fuel. Solar or wind power on board is a huge plus.

Personally, don't be concerned about the argument over which is a better brand. Most of the boats in your sights will do fine for you. Don't rush, and walk on many boats. One of them will speak to you. Then get a thorough survey.

Good luck!!!

Thank you! Yes, that is my general plan. I will choose the right boat at the end with my gut and the one my significant other likes the best! Haha Running short handed is on my checklist! And since I’m 6’4”, I’m thinking salon height might play a factor
Thanks!

[grahamj]

Having owned a Hunter, a couple of Catalinas and several Beneteaus the Benny's were much better specced in terms of sturdiness of fittings, rigging etc. They were also less like RV's with a keel and more like sailboats.

Just my experience. YMMV.

[wolfgal]

forgive me for not reading through before answering, but i'm assuming that most will tell you this: if you've got the money, go for the well-founded boat (hull, rigging, sails, engine, ... lots of things before electronics). this advice is good from the perspective of money (you will pay either way) and experience (frustration vs enjoyment), not to mention the time you will save.

anyway, my perspective is this:

your kids are young, say 3 and 5?: this is important! your kids being young gives you a window of precious years to spend as a family on the water with them. during these years, you can share your passion and include them in your joy, make it a family thing.

when the window closes, which can begin around 13/14 for a girl and a bit later for a boy (usually), this dream could be cooked. it could be too late to make this a family thing, memories lost because they were not made. (this is when regrets kick in and overtake your well-being too).

just one thing: make sure that ALL of their initial sailing experiences are wonderful, as in, easy-fun-short-perfect. at the slightest sign of seasickness or malaise or fear, change that plan. do not persist and make the kid ride it out. if the seas are up, if the weather looks rough, whatever: change that plan. it only takes a few disagreeable experiences early on to ruin it for them, for life.

keeping teens interested: you win some and you lose some, but by getting them into sailing early and making these dreams happen early on (as opposed to later, when all the work is done), will give your family that opportunity to grow together and bond in your love for sailing and the sea.

last point: when they are young, you can also get them onboard with washing the boat and doing small chores (slowly and in the spirit of love for the boat, and some fun). this is a huge part of their attachment the boat itself, this is when the boat becomes their treasure. so many forget.

very good luck to you!



wolfie

[mvweebles]

People gravitate to the obvious stuff - electronics, sails, rigging, engine hours, etc. But there are some big expenses in less obvious places.

General guesstimates for a 38-42 footer with materials and installed by a professional

Dodger - $8k, less if existing frame
Hull paint - $15k
Topside paint - $15k
New interior upholstery and foam - $7k
Solar, 600ah LFP batteries and 3kw inverter - $10k
Decent 310 RIB and 15hp outboard $7k
SS arch and dinghy davit- $8k
Windlass $2500
Bow thruster - $8k
Generator- $15k (half that for a hi-RPM brand)

On average, lucky if these add 25 cents of value for each dollar of cost.

Peter

[Jetx]

Originally Posted by grahamj

Having owned a Hunter, a couple of Catalinas and several Beneteaus the Benny's were much better specced in terms of sturdiness of fittings, rigging etc. They were also less like RV's with a keel and more like sailboats.

Just my experience. YMMV.

I’m sure this is true for grahamj, but my experience was just the opposite. Only owned one Beneateau and one Catalina (both early 2000’s), and the Catalina was MUCH better put together. Standing and running rigging on similar sized boats were all one two two sizes larger on the Catalinas at the time, and general construction quality was better.

I expected the Catalina (a 387) to be a bit of a dog to sail, but it turned out to be a great sailing boat as well. Reasonably fast, easy to sail, and much more comfortable than the bene with its flat hull sections forward. Had much more fun sailing it than we ever had on the bene. The Beneteau was prettier though

To the OP, take a look at the Catalina 380’s and 387’s on your list. You should find some well-cared-for examples in your price range. There’s an excellent owner’s group at https://groups.io/g/catalina380.

And one more enthusiastic vote for buying the boat that’s in the best condition, and already had the work done! Assuming it was done well, you’ll save a ton vs having to do it (or hire it done) yourself, and save loads of time and aggravation as well.

[peter loveridge]

I've built, or rebuilt 5 more or less 30 foot boats. The first three were wooden. Planes and saws were much more pleasant to work with than angle grinders. But if you can't do the work yourself, don't buy a fixer upper. I have to sail a day and a half to get anywhere near a yard that knows anything about sailboats. Also don't listen to people that tell you to replace 5 year old electronics. If they work , leave them there, and try to keep everything simple. Same with engines. Same with topside paint, it doesn't have to cost $15k. I repaint mine every 2=3 years and it costs about $100.

[JohnParkerSJ]

Thank you all again for all your replies to my questions. You guys are obviously just a great group of experienced sailors trying to help out a rookie. Memories are on the top of my list. I’ve been blessed to get another chance at life. I met a much younger women that has a small sailboat and loves being in, on or near the water. And not too hard to look at . We are both in the coast guard auxiliary and have our 100gt near shore Merchant Mariner Certs. We have one daughter approaching two years old and one due in June. So having them on board with a dog or two is the vision I have and pursuing. So I loved the memory thread - thank you! And thank those with providing me some actual numbers and things to add to my check list of questions when I start taking a serious look this spring, summer and fall. I now know what a dodger is

Like I mentioned above I have two motor boats, which I have professionally maintained. A grand or so to pull and winterize, another grand or so to put in in the spring. So about 3-5k a year. Fortunately I have (about to be had) a summer home on the water with a floating dock where the boats sit saving me slip costs.

So I’m hearing I need to start the sailboat fund after I buy. Sounds like $500 a month is a good number when things come up or we want to spoil ourselves. Sad part is we only put $100 a week in the college funds . So a fund for the sailboat higher than the 529 seems a little wrong haha. So does 5-7k a year sound about right? Or should it be higher? Definitely doesn’t sound like it should be lower. Naturally I would add slip, fuel etc to that 5-7k per year. I’m a budget type person, so watching the sailboat fund grow makes it exciting rather than a financial burden, if that makes sense.

Also it seems like people love their Beneteaus. Also what about Hunters? What’s with the bad rap? The highest number of boats for sail with very reasonable prices. 38’ Hunter 2000+ for around 80-100k. I’m also getting information from hunter owners that love them. I’m thinking they might be like the bayliners of the motor boat world. They were terrible boats in the 80/90s but then the company got acquired and took the quality way up. Cleats ripping out and transoms cracking. Really bad reputation. However, people still think they are terrible boats. Their bad reputation still sticks to them. I never owned one, but would put on my list of pursuing a motor boat, as long as it was newer than 2000. So long story short - is that what’s happening with Hunters?

Thanks again to all for reading and replying to this thread!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by JohnParkerSJ

Would love a little steerage here. Looking at 38+ monohulls and finding a pretty big range. Getting a price to upgrade and really mint a 1985+ 38+ sailboat isn’t easy. So many people involved. Electronics, hull/deck, engine, sails etc.
Looking at some great boats, some seem to need some serious TLC and some look amazing. Just beautiful! So I’m stuck with spending 50-80k for a 25yr+ older boat or something in the same age, but beautiful for 90-120k. Understand there is a big difference between a Hunter and an IP, but staying at the same level boat, I still question do I go a little beat up with need of electronics, sails and possible engine or pay upfront and take the cream puff. Love to hear how painful the overhaul would be or would that be the way to go?

Family of 4
2 small children
Marina with a pool
Flipped a few houses, but never a sailboat
Many years of owning larger motor boats and ready to move my summer home onto the water

Curious if anyone has gotten such information in a survey? Is there a marina with a broker that can do it all? Looking in the MD area near Grasonville.

So what will I be doing you ask? Sleeping overnight, enjoying a calm day on the Chesapeake and a once a year trip to the Bahamas. Have done the trip a few times by motor. Without the kids . But now would like to bring them.

Appreciate any insight or do i just flip a coin? And I won’t be doing the work. All professionals.

A major overhaul is painful. I would not do it. It's a full time job, it's after work and weekends. Nearly every owner who refits his boat loses a ton of money when he sells. Let someone do that for you instead of you doing it.

"a little beat up with need of electronics, sails and possible engine" NO. Those are all expensive and time consuming. Get a boat with good sails and a good engine. The rest will be plenty of stress and work. Replacing the the main and foresail if the budget is right is fine. But get an estimate! It may be $15k

I dont think a boat with a good engine and sails is necessarily a "creme puff".
For your plans a clean production boat is a good choice. Electronics go out of date fast, consider electronics are "0 value" on a used boat.

Don't go strictly by a survey, use your eyes. Many things that SHOULD be done are not rejected on a survey.
Watch out for tankage problems on an older boat. Any tank under the floor boards is suspect until proven good.
Old rigging may need replaced, it's expensive to have done, not too expensive if you have the skills to do it. Your insurance company may want it done if it's too old.

Paying to have things done is frustrating and very expensive. It's even difficult to find places to do it some times. That should factor in to what you decide.

[malbert73]

By the way, when you are looking at boats given your young kids I have experience with that as we started cruising with our 9 and 11 year old each at birth since we already had a boat. A V berth and aft double is probably ideal. A V berth can have a board down the middle for two kids which is perfect. Delos had a cool zip up tent for their toddler which they strapped into the v.
An island queen requires a little more work to make two berths out of..
Most importantly from our experience the kids absolutely love overnight trips on the boat. They don’t understand why people day boat and go home at the end of the day. They love enclosed spaces and cave like nooks and crannies to play in.

[Cheechako]

Another good thought with kids is a swim step stern!

[cyan]

Originally Posted by JohnParkerSJ

Also it seems like people love their Beneteaus. Also what about Hunters? What’s with the bad rap?

You can search this forum for many threads regarding the Hunter debate. My advice is to see if you can go for a sail on a few different makes. We have previously rented Bennys, Catalinas and Hunters in a similar effort to find out what we liked and didn't like.

Here is just one example of getting enlightened: We loved the fantastic layout and the style of a Hunter 41 DS and it was a dream to sail... until it was late in the day and at the point where I wanted to go wing on wing like I often do. Wait. What? Not happening. B&R rig, swept back spreaders, no back stay. (oh, yeah) Maybe it could have been done with more finesse than I gave it... if only the main sheet was a bit longer. (probably intentional keeping the main off the spreaders for the inexperienced)

It was a deal-breaker for us and that model. I understand that you can do wing on wing on a B&R rig, but I wanted to do it... easily. (like on the Bennys and Catalinas we had sailed) Call me quirky.

You might find your own likes/dislikes that only show up when you sail. If you can, do a little test-driving as part of your search. My 2 cents.

[bensolomon]

John parker,

You are correct about saving money for your boat...more is better. Marina fees with a pool alone can cost you $5,000 per year for seasonal dockage. Not sure what part of the country you are, or how long you intend to spend docked. Average transient slip rate in Maryland is $2.50-$3.50 per foot per night in my area (rock Hall, Annapolis, St. Michael).

Someone on the forum is doing an ongoing study about cost to live aboard. Just search and you'll find it. No need to rehash here.

Also, I am a hunter owner and grew up sailing a hunter 32 from Chesapeake to Maine (back when they were full keeled boats). I love my 1990 hunter legend! But....as suggested, that discussion has also been done many times before. Just search the forum archived and you will find. There will be proponents and opponents of all the various models.

Ben

[JohnParkerSJ]

Thanks - yes sleeping overnight,I’m hoping, is the norm. Nighttime accommodations are high on the list. More beds and less heads! Guessing mom will sleep with one and I’ll get the other. Doubt any boat in the 38-42 loa can handle 4 in one bed. Probably right in the slip in the beginning, can’t imagine I’ll be the only one Once we get to know the waters, we’ll try a safe spot in the bay. Love the swim platform/ladder idea. Also a marina with a pool is high on the list. There will be plenty of showers and heads there

Thanks everyone!

[Ded reckoner]

Originally Posted by JohnParkerSJ

This search seems to be predominately Catalina, Beneteau and Hunter. All about the same or are there major differences?

I don't have experience with Catalina or Beneteau, but we bareboat chartered a Hunter 38 for years for Galveston Bay area sailing. We loved the boat, liked the layout, liked the way she sailed.

If you're looking at other makes, I recommend you take a look at a Nauticat 38 (if you can find one) or a Nauticat 40. These are pilothouse sailboats.

[Be Free]

You've received some really great advice here about the realities of buying a fixer-upper vs a better maintained boat.

Something to consider is how you will actually, realistically use the boat. Step back for a bit from the dream and look at what you would do today if you already had the boat. Given the time and money you have today, where would you go and what would you do? Given your children's ages where would you sail and for how long? Take a hard look at how you are going to actually use the boat.

I would submit that the most expensive boat is not the fixer-upper that has a long list of repairs but it is the boat in the marina that never gets used.

Once you've realistically determined how you will use it today your list of possible boats will become much shorter. Find the boat that is right for you. That same boat would be wrong for me based on what you've shared already. I'm a very analytical person so I put together a spreadsheet listing features that were important to me and a dollar value for what it would cost to add that feature if needed. If an important feature could not be added at any cost then that boat was not a possibility. Originally the list was long, but as I looked at how I would actually be using the boat, not how I dreamed of using it, the list got shorter and my search more focused.

I'm starting my 11th year with the boat I chose that way and I have used it and tweaked it and used it some more. It still does everything I want to do. I have thousands of hours and more thousands of miles on that boat. I know that's not much for a lot of you but I think its pretty good for a coastal and inland sailor who was not retired and still raising a family for a good part of that time.

Your first boat will probably not be your last boat. As your family grows and as your experience grows you may find that it's time to move on to another boat. Buy today's boat today and go sailing.