ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

my wife starts steering at me after 15 min of not going anywhere. then i turn on engines.

Mine is happy with sailing slow. Slow sailing means little wind and quite sea. She gets nervous when I insist on sailing upwind on a choppy sea at 3-4 kts of speed.Nevertheless, year after year she started realising that motoring upwind on a cat is a miserable experience and she's more tolerant.. .

Cheers

Yeloya

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your boat is better in light winds. Also, where you sail not much confused seas, i guess. I have noticed around sydney, that sleek looking monos on average motor as much as I do. Sail dumping because of roll on open ocean affects all, one needs most times 7 or so kn of wind to go 4-5 kn.

Normally with 7k wind the sea on the med is pretty flat unless there was some nasty weather before that leaved a confused sea.

I bought this type of boat more for the sail potential in light wind than anything else. That really increases the sailing time (and I like to sail). On racing trim the VPP for my boat with 6K true wind at 60º is 5.88 and from there to 110º is always over 6k, with a max of 6.22.

With less wind the difference between boat speed and wind speed is bigger, making the boat proportionally more wind.

With 7k and the boat in cruising load I can go at 6K. One more k with light winds makes a lot of difference and with 8k wind I will go very near 7K (more than 7k if the boat is not loaded for cruising).

Regarding sailing what counts most is the sailor. I have saw very fast cats and fast monohulls motoring and heavy ones sailing slowly, but sailing.

[Palarran]

Sorry, little side track and I don't need a lot of answers, but - how many gaz bottles do you think I should have with five men eating a lot of cooked food for the crossing from Canaries to Antigua? Forum search turned up zilch. I have two now.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Sorry, little side track and I don't need a lot of answers, but - how many gaz bottles do you think I should have with five men eating a lot of cooked food for the crossing from Canaries to Antigua? Forum search turned up zilch. I have two now.

Depends how big they are.... EDIT... the bottles... not the men...

I budget on getting 1 month from a 4.5kg bottle for 2,3, or 4 crew in total...... consumption doesn't seem to vary much with a change in the numbers.

That was once reduced to 14 days when someone who thought he was Jamie Oliver seized control of the galley......

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Sometimes I sail with 5 kts of wind making 2-3 kts of speed on coastal day sailing; it's fun and good practice to improve yr trimming skills.

Probably would help me learn to sail. I'll give it a try some day.

To me, the ARC starts way too early , the trades settle much later compared to 10-15 years ago (global warming ??) Many recent ARC's had very unfavorable winds. I had started 6th of Jan and did it in 17 days with 10 hours of motoring with a relatively slow catamaran, Orana.

Regarding the motoring hours, I have just checked the multi's; I cannot believe that L 450 (classified 1st) has arrived 4 days earlier than L570 (one of the fastest Lagoon ever made) and motoring only 5 hours vs. 37 hours of motoring for L 570. This is ridiculous...
There might be people believeing in that but not me..

Cheers

Yeloya

The ARC starts for their own reasons but I agree, better to wait until after December at least. We are planning on Dec. 4th or 5th with crew flying in on the 1st. One month off is a huge stretch for many Americans regardless of financial situation.

The Lagoon's came in like 1st to 6th. Not a good showing for the Helia. You never know with some boats. Maybe they are new, no generator, and very good light wind sails.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Sorry, little side track and I don't need a lot of answers, but - how many gaz bottles do you think I should have with five men eating a lot of cooked food for the crossing from Canaries to Antigua? Forum search turned up zilch. I have two now.

1.5 kg/month/person should give you plenty.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Palarran

...
The Lagoon's came in like 1st to 6th. Not a good showing for the Helia. You never know with some boats. Maybe they are new, no generator, and very good light wind sails.

I guess You are talking about the ARC+? This thread is about the ARC, the one that goes direct and without refuelling (at least for most of the boats) to Santa Lucia.

Much more boats on the ARC, including much more cats, than on the ARC+ and that allows for a much better pool in what regards looking at time passages.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

Normally with 7k wind the sea on the med is pretty flat unless there was some nasty weather before that leaved a confused sea.

I bought this type of boat more for the sail potential in light wind than anything else. That really increases the sailing time (and I like to sail). On racing trim the VPP for my boat with 6K true wind at 60º is 5.88 and from there to 110º is always over 6k, with a max of 6.22.

With less wind the difference between boat speed and wind speed is bigger, making the boat proportionally more wind.

With 7k and the boat in cruising load I can go at 6K. One more k with light winds makes a lot of difference and with 8k wind I will go very near 7K (more than 7k if the boat is not loaded for cruising).

Regarding sailing what counts most is the sailor. I have saw very fast cats and fast monohulls motoring and heavy ones sailing slowly, but sailing.

i am yet to see mono sailing more than 2k in 5k or less kn of wind around sydney even these 100 ft racing ones that i guess have higher rating than yours. you comparing apples with durian.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am yet to see mono sailing more than 2k in 5k or less kn of wind around sydney even these 100 ft racing ones that i guess have higher rating than yours. you comparing apples with durian.

here is the proof . 4 kn winds. and they were moving less than 1 kn. Start of race. I am in loss where you get 6,7,8 kn in 6 kn wind unless in absolutely flat like conditions.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess You are talking about the ARC+? This thread is about the ARC, the one that goes direct and without refuelling (at least for most of the boats) to Santa Lucia.

Polux, with respect, you don't own this forum or this thread. Post all you want, and I'm going to post all I want. So if you feel the need to try to tell someone what they can post, have at it. But I'm not going to listen so quit trying it with me.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am yet to see mono sailing more than 2k in 5k or less kn of wind around sydney even these 100 ft racing ones that i guess have higher rating than yours. you comparing apples with durian.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here is the proof . 4 kn winds. and they were moving less than 1 kn. Start of race. I am in loss where you get 6,7,8 kn in 6 kn wind unless in absolutely flat like conditions.

Arsene, I did not said on all positions of sail and certainly not at big angles downwind but even downwind all those raceboats are able to do much better than 1 k with 4k wind.

The speed with very light winds can have little to do with the boat rating. Very small boats can sail faster (or not) then much bigger ones on those conditions, depending on their performance on light wind.

Of course we are talking here of pretty much flat water as it would be expected in very light winds on most conditions. The numbers I gave you have nothing of extraordinary they are typical numbers for a fast performance cruiser, not even a racer. Fast performance multihulls sail also fast in light wind and over wind speed for speeds up to 5k.

It it is difficult to find VPP at 4K, mostly start at 6k but you can see on these several examples that at wind speeds under 6k fast performance cruisers can go well over wind speed, namely in 4k wind.

Even a much slower boat than mine and not properly a performance cruiser (but a fast cruiser), like the Halberg Rassy 372 can do 4.5K with 4k winds. Off course this is a light boat but on cruising trim it should be able to do about 4K.

On a boat with a more similar performance with mine, on light wind, a X41 or a Pogo 12.50, you can see that both boats can do well over 5K with 4 k wind. Again light boats but take half a knot for a loaded boat and they will still be doing close to 5.

As I said before less the wind, more apparent wind (proportionally) a fast performance cruiser will be able to do. With 3 k wind the diference in boat speed over the wind speed will be bigger (proportionally) than with 5K wind and less with 6K than with 5K.

Depending on the sailboat there will be a wind speed where the boat match wind speed and over that wind speed, boat speeds will be slower than wind speed.

Look attentively at those two Polar speeds from two very different performance cruisers and you will see what I mean:


Condo cats can be fast cruising on the trade winds were medium to strong winds downwind winds are to be expected and on these circumstances the diferences in performance for a performance multihull, or a performance monohull, are not big, but in light winds and particularly out of downwind sailing, those diferences will be big.

Last year I was very impressed with the performance on the ARC of a Neel 45 trimaran, a lighter version they call racing, but I remember that when the Neel 45 was launched, to be sailing near one on very light winds, with a Salona 41 (Croatia), also a new performance cruiser then, and at the time, I was not impressed at all with the Neel performance in very light winds, in fact I turned around the boat to see it better, sailing.

[yeloya]

Polux,

I strongly suggest that you do more sailing than internet search.

I've raced on Archambaud 40 R for couple of years, carbon mast/boom, state of art technological sails and with a professional team. As Arsen was suggesting, I have never seen speeds even close to the ones you are referring to.
Pls also remember that most of the polar graphs are computer generated and 99% of them are bull s..t..

You can find whatever proof you like on the internet, but the reality on the sea. If you want to learn about boats, go sailing and tell us about yr own experience, not from the data you collect on the net..

Cheers

Yeloya

[Factor]

I laugh my posterior off when I see people relying on Polars. Its like believing fuel economy figures issued by car manufacturers, theoretically possible, practically totally impossible.

I amazed at the level of assumed knowledge from someone who I understand has not sailed a multi, please correct me if I am wrong. I can also say I have sailed a good pogo 12.5 and if it can do the figures the polar predicts in under 10 knots of wind, I will walk backwards to bourke.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Polux, with respect, you don't own this forum or this thread. Post all you want, and I'm going to post all I want. So if you feel the need to try to tell someone what they can post, have at it. But I'm not going to listen so quit trying it with me.

No, but this thread is specifically about the ARC and you are out of topic.

You are welcomed to talk about all you want if you remain on topic. The ARC 2016 is the topic of this thread.

IF you want to talk about the ARC+ or any other cruising Rally please open a thread about it and post there. Talking on a thread about the ARC about boats, engine hours and performances of boats on the ARC+, without even saying that you are talking about boats that have nothing to do with the subject of this thread (ARC) is confusing and inapropriate.

The ARC+ is a different transat, a much smaller one and one with a refueling point. I had said on a post to Dockhead at the beginning of this thread:

Originally Posted by Polux

......
The ARC + is made normally by less sportive sailors, with exception of the cat sailors that made it on the first years their favorite transat till last year. Last year the fastest multihulls were already doing the ARC (the main event) and this year even more chose the ARC.

However some fast cat sailors prefere to shine on the ARC+ where the competition is smaller and the boats slower (this year the fastest monohull there is an Halberg Rassy 63 and the fastest cat a lagoon 450, neither of them particularly fast boats).

The reasons I don't follow the ARC+ has to do with the fact that it has much less boats, that in what regards monohulls it has very few sailors that take it in a more sportive way, the fact that the possibility of taking fuel again in Cabo verde makes the use of engines much more frequent making the results less significant.
..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

I laugh my posterior off when I see people relying on Polars.
...

You should know that VPP today are incredibly accurate and are the ones that serve to do boat rating even for top performance rating. Racing sailors have them as reference and it is not unusual to sail over them and most of the time sailing to the polar speed or very close to it, if the conditions are ideal is not very hard.

If you sail fast performance boats I am also very surprised you never noticed than with 2, 3 or 4K winds it is easy to sail over wind speed, at least in some points of sail.