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Old 28-03-2019, 16:18   #46
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Originally Posted by Arthurwg View Post
Very interesting thread, and thanks for that diagram, Montana. What would be the material and diameter of the snubber lines? Any suggestions for the snubber hook? Manufacturer? I'm looking for a setup for a 20,000 lb boat with a 50 lb anchor.
Arthur, I dislike using the typical chain hooks that do not have a mechanism to avoid them coming uncoupled from the rode chain when the tension is relieved. One has to factor is tidal depth changes when using such non-retained hooks. They tend to work OK if and only if the snubbers are always shorter than the depth of the water because the chain always retains catenary tension when it is lifted by the hook from the bottom. But a short snubber does not provide for stretch and thus has limited usefulness except to avoid running the load over the anchor roller and bowsprit.

The hook pictured below is a massive version of the ordinary chain hooks, and one can imagine the size of the chain it would be coupled to.
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Old 28-03-2019, 16:24   #47
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I'm still of the opinion that an anchor roller can be made strong enough to easily absorb the loads imposed by running the snubber over it. The damaged ones shown are all of the flimsy aftermarket type, made up of thin sheet metal and bent into shape and incorporating small diameter axles. Not very strong at all!

-- snip --


Jim

Thanks for your thoughtful (as always) comments, Jim. Like yours, our bow roller is well designed and seriously built, and I see no reason why (in our typical conditions) we should be concerned.


And because (again, appropriate for our conditions) we only have fifty feet of chain, we normally anchor with that plus 25 to 50 feet of rode, so with that firmly attached to a cleat the snubbing is built in.


So I'm am going to sleep reassured that our setup is appropriate and solid enough (for our conditions). Those who anchor in other conditions may want other arrangements.
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Old 28-03-2019, 17:31   #48
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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We have a double roller installed on the bow, but in 20 yrs cruising (Asia to the Caribb) we've never needed to use a double bow anchor. So we carry the backup in our aft lazarette, and use the other bow roller for the snubber. We let out and then set the anchor (typically a 5:1 scope), then connect the snubber to the chain and to a bow cleat and let it out over the 2nd bow roller (almost in line), then let out some extra chain to give the snubber some stretch room, and then put the chain thru a chain lock bolted thru the deck and just prior to the windlass. Seems to work well!
I like this! Thanks for the idea.
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Old 28-03-2019, 17:45   #49
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

SAM, FWIW, here's my opinion regarding anchoring in the Chesapeake Bay, based on 20+ years of anchoring a boat similar to yours in the bay....(Cal 39' 17000lbs.)

- Add more chain, about 50' of 5/16 HT. You don't need all chain, because the bottom is mostly soft everywhere...you don't want all chain because you won't believe the amount of mud that even 50' will bring up, let alone even more chain. You do want the catenary effect of the 50', and in all probability, your C&C is going to sail around a good bit at anchor, and the 50' will settle that down somewhat.

- Add more line....your 100' of nylon is just at the minimum length necessary, so get at least 200' of 5/8 nylon three strand or brait and you should be in good shape. That will give you a total rode length of 250' which will be plenty. Remember, in the Chesapeake Bays' more than 100 miles of length there are only a few places where the water is over 100' deep, and those spots are in the middle of the ship channel and you won't be anchoring there.

Where you will be anchoring is in the hundreds and hundreds of creeks, coves, and small bays where the water will be somewhere between 8' and 20' deep. In these places you will typically let out all 50' of your chain and then somewhere between 10' and 50' feet of your nylon line. This nylon will give you a good elastic effect and you won't have to mess with a separate snubber line.

Do use your bow roller, that's what C&C put it there for. A chafe guard on the line at the roller won't hurt, and if I recall correctly there are holes in the casting to allow the fitting of a pin to retain the rode if necessary. I know several C&C owners who use the roller all the time with no problem.

Based on my personal experiences I would suggest getting rid of the 35 Delta and getting a Rocna 20kg. I've dragged a 35 CQR and a 35 Delta around the bay enough, but have been very happy with the Rocna. Plus when you venture further afield you will feel better with it.

Now that you will be anchoring, dinghy riding and swimming around the bay, get a pint spray bottle and fill it with white vinegar. One of these times you will get introduced to the notorious Chesapeake Bay stinging nettles (AKA jelly fish), and the white vinegar is the recommended antidote. You'll be glad you have it onboard!

Have fun.

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Old 28-03-2019, 20:09   #50
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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I'm still of the opinion that an anchor roller can be made strong enough to easily absorb the loads imposed by running the snubber over it. The damaged ones shown are all of the flimsy aftermarket type, made up of thin sheet metal and bent into shape and incorporating small diameter axles. Not very strong at all!

The rollers on many cruising boats, including ours, are massive weldments made up of 6 to 8 mm stainless plate, and either not cantilevered out far or with vertical bracing from below. The axle is 16 mm s/s, well supported on both sides of the roller, and the roller has an OD of 100 mm. The whole thing is part of the stemhead fitting and incorporates the chainplate for the forestay. That this is adequately strong is supported by the fact that we've had our snubber and chain lead over the roller for literally thousands of days at anchor, and it has not distorted nor bent the axle. And during those days, there has been no significant chafe on the snubber (double braid nylon, 16 mm).

IMO your blanket condemnation of the practice of leading a single snubber over the roller should be modified to accept that some rollers are stronger than others and for them, it is an acceptable practice... or else show me where I'm wrong.

Oh... in storm conditions I do rig a backup snubber, and it is lead via a chock. However, it is not loaded unless the primary breaks and thus is not subject to routine chafing.

Jim
I agree that rollers can be made robust and even some bowsprits can be ruggedized, but most are not. I see your boat is a one off and given the measurements you have described it sounds like its system if comparatively very robust and is not cantilevered out far from the support of the bow.

Many rollers are cantilevered without additional support just the skimpy metal of the roller structure and can't handle significant loads let alone dynamic peak loading or sideways loading.

Using the back up snubber is wise, certainly aids in ones sleeping comfort.

When I have sailed catamarans I deploy two bridles if the weather is looking dicy. With the second bridle set with slack compared to the first and of course separate snubbers lines to each hull's hardpoint such that if one breaks the second line of that snubber bridle will still be attached.

I just marvel at the number of times I see just short snubbers deployed on anchor chains and only one snubber and / or little or no slack on the chain so that the snubber can't stretch and take up the cyclic loadings. But then I see similar issues at the docks. I have gone through a lot of my inventory of spare ropes deploying to assist boats in marinas that have broken loose do to inappropriate tying. I think the year before last I consumed about $450 on lines for others, but we had few storms this past season so I think I only installed a few dock additional and replacement lines to those that were not properly set. I have come to hate the days when the swells in the marina rise over the fixed height docks.
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Old 28-03-2019, 21:15   #51
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I'm still of the opinion that an anchor roller can be made strong enough to easily absorb the loads imposed by running the snubber over it. The damaged ones shown are all of the flimsy aftermarket type, made up of thin sheet metal and bent into shape and incorporating small diameter axles. Not very strong at all!

The rollers on many cruising boats, including ours, are massive weldments made up of 6 to 8 mm stainless plate, and either not cantilevered out far or with vertical bracing from below. The axle is 16 mm s/s, well supported on both sides of the roller, and the roller has an OD of 100 mm. The whole thing is part of the stemhead fitting and incorporates the chainplate for the forestay. That this is adequately strong is supported by the fact that we've had our snubber and chain lead over the roller for literally thousands of days at anchor, and it has not distorted nor bent the axle. And during those days, there has been no significant chafe on the snubber (double braid nylon, 16 mm).

IMO your blanket condemnation of the practice of leading a single snubber over the roller should be modified to accept that some rollers are stronger than others and for them, it is an acceptable practice... or else show me where I'm wrong.

Oh... in storm conditions I do rig a backup snubber, and it is lead via a chock. However, it is not loaded unless the primary breaks and thus is not subject to routine chafing.

Jim
I believe that too but we are a small vessel without swell nor short lay.
Preferred leave it and trust security is low security, eg snubbers from low attachment points bow to reduce pitch leverage.

Nathan
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Old 28-03-2019, 22:02   #52
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

I don't use snubbers.
Here is a length of chain plus spliced shackle rope to extend line.
If lay need shortening the shackle gets a mid link and the whole chain gets thrown over. We'd have to lift that to pull lay!
Unless heavy conditions we go over bow and it's easy. If needed someone has to lean over and attach low.

We ain't rude boating, it's obvious when someone else is looking to pick. Sometimes it is easier to ask them, " do you have draft restrictions? " if so we re set.
If they have prohibited access to there own safety, we stay set..
Catching big fish.. It was this long.
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Old 30-03-2019, 02:23   #53
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

Besides putting up with an idiot (my clews and guys).

This picture is an unknown yacht.
If you were to build a smooth edge where the line is and ditto on port side. By using twin rode she'll ride swell much better. A reduced pitch fulcrum to reduce line snap. A reduced acceleration while on pick.
(Comparing to similar vessels via bow rollers)
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Old 30-03-2019, 02:36   #54
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

She'd punch better farther fore. A harder punch needs a stronger rode.
I don't know the vessel. I think she looks great. Just an example.
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Old 30-03-2019, 11:25   #55
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Besides putting up with an idiot (my clews and guys).

This picture is an unknown yacht.
If you were to build a smooth edge where the line is and ditto on port side. By using twin rode she'll ride swell much better. A reduced pitch fulcrum to reduce line snap. A reduced acceleration while on pick.
(Comparing to similar vessels via bow rollers)
Indeed implement a smooth and wide radius for all turns of rode, sheets, ropes and providing for reduced angle and mitigate against vertical movement so as to derive eased motion, those are key elements in harsh conditions.

As to the snubbers - "length yields", i.e., stretches under load. So longer snubbers work best and non-oversized diameter snubbers provide for added stretch. With a given load, a single snubber will stretch more then providing the same tension loads to two snubbers [bridle like configuration] and thus a single snubber can be more springy and softening of peak loading, BUT the given load is focussed to only the one snubbing rode which stresses such singularity of rode to higher levels of tension, heating and chafe, and such configuration also focuses all the load to the single hard point attachment to the vessel [to a cleat] and to any routing devices through which it passes [chocks or anchor rollers]. The use of a bridle scheme allows for dividing the load to lessen the stresses to each component of the force pathways. Or in the alternative, where one uses one leg of the bridle system to be the primary and the second to be slackened to become the secondary [i.e., a storm snubber] or a "safety" snubber in case the primary were to break; but if a primary and a secondary snubber scheme is deployed recognize then one is again focusing the load foremost through the pathway of the primary snubber.

As to placement for anchorage, I suggest if harsh conditions are anticipated or arise to affix the snubber to the port and starboard mid-ship cleats or hardpoints [or to hardpoints a distance back from the bow] as such readily avails use of yet longer snubbers and the forming of a gentler angle then progressing snubbers directly from and over the bow. The midpoint of a vessel does not pitch or turn with as much magnitude or velocity as the ends. [A reason to like center cockpit vessels]. This midship directed snubbing method is rather obvious but seldom realized; yet any competent mariner deploys exactly such configuration when they tie up to the dock in the marina - such ropes being called spring lines. Emphasis added to the adjective spring Note that bridles that ride on either side of the hull also aid in keeping the boat from turning and sailing tro port and starboard as they tend to block and guide the boat into the wind. When a boat sails to port and starboard it inflicts very large turning moments onto a bow's structure potentially exceeding its yield strength resulting in bending the roller or bowsprit to a side and downward.

Snubbers are Springs!!! One desires to not bend a spring instead one desires to allow the spring to linearly extend and contract absorbing and releasing tension an work effort over a greater periodicity of time so as to avoid peak loading on the hard points [the hardpoints being the anchor or mooring at one end and the other where the line is affixed [e.g., a cleat] or where it is routed through or over, e.g., a chocks or hawespipe, deck edge.

If one is afforded anchorage such as to be only subject to modest swells and waves then little cyclic peak loading will be realized so the type of snubbers and their pathway or pathways become lesser of import as to fixing your vessel. Just as if your docking berth in a sheltered marina has near glass smooth conditions, then there is lesser need for utilizing long spring lines or crossing your bow and stern lines so as to extend their length and lessen their angle of action. But if your marina is subject to occasional severe rollers and waves [as mine can be here in Montana] then one really needs to tie up for dealing with severe peak loading and significant vertical and sideways movements and implementation of load sharing and peak load lessening implements. There is nothing like watching a 10,000, 20,000 or 40,000+ pound yacht thrashing about in its slip when tied to short lengths of docking lines. The entire dock shudders violently under the peak load of each and every wave. That's when you see boat parts tear out or dock parts tear out and lines chafe and break and when one line breaks free, the rest typically fail in rapid succession. I recall in less than two minutes one boat broke out seven of its eight improper docking lines all because they were each too short and not properly lead or angled. The one remaining line provided the brief moment to allow our attaching of additional lines to wrangle the heavy boat back into it slip, else it would have drifted back into the downwind docked boats on the nearer to shore pier with likely devastating effect on the smaller boats in the shallower water.

I have come to truly hate the few days [and seemingly longer nights] when the wind becomes strong, sustained and out of the worst direction for fetch length and exposure to the entry of the marina as then my marina can have two or three feet of swells rising above, over and through the fixed level dockage and then lowering similarly far below [so say six foot total vertical displacement movement from peak to valley]. One moment the waterline of a boat may be equal to or higher than the dock, then depending on the size and height of the boat, the deck is near equal to or worst case lower than the dock. The dock being something you so do not want to have a boat get under or on top of. The bowsprits that may partly overhang the main dock because of a too large of a yacht situated in a too short of slip become truly lethal as they rapidly rise and drop and / or they get quickly busted off when they collide with the top of the dock; bye bye anchor roller and then dangling anchor smashing the side of the bow. In the dark I turned my back on a bowsprit once and almost stepped under the bowsprit with its two large anchors which would have squashed me like a bug under a shoe. I've spent considerable time readjusting and replacing the dock lines of unattended or improperly tied yachts, especially those with appendages [bowsprits or davits or swim platforms] are prone to riding under or over the dock. Having to shift a large boat further out of its berth slip so as to have its bow or stern shifted away from the dock when it is being severely tossed about is difficult and hazardous. One has to first attach additional retaining springlines to the bucking bronco of a boat, loosen the stern and bow lines that are intended to restrain sideways motion, loosen the springlines that disallow the boat to shift out of its berthing slip, then tighten the added spring line to pull the boat outwards from its berthing position, then reset the bow & stern lines to inhibit excess sideways motion and then reset the backwards motion restraining spring lines. Running back and forth on the finger piers, or worse dealing with pilings on one side when there is no finger pier on that shared berthing configuration, accomplished usually alone and sometimes in the dark at night. Then when having run out of spares ropes, the situation calls out for a quick trip to the chandlery or hardware store to purchase yet more ropes to settle other unattended boats. I have learned to just buy out the local stores stock of ropes in such "emergency" situations and return whatever I might not use after the storm. I have also wised up and learned that it is preferable to buy out the inventory of lines of various size and length before the storm arrives and go about affixing the lines to boats that need them before they begin severely tossing about. The most recent severe storm the marina manager, his resort staff, a deputy Sheriff and several Search and Rescue volunteers aided in wrangling the wayward boats in the marina, before I even recognized that a storm had arrived and was able to get to the marina. So upon my arrival I was much relieved to see competent and capable personnel getting ahead of the situation for the first time. And hey, sometimes I actually get refunded for the cost of the lines I supplied by such wayward boat owners if and when they notice or find out their boat has been provided new or additional lines. Usually not . It's not like I affix my name and contact information to the new lines or go ask them for $$$. Some people have said that I might incur liability for interceding and adding or adjusting lines, if bad things arise, but I just say, Bring it on. I will trust the judge [a friend] and a jury to know a good Samaritan. I am much more worried about getting hurt trying. The sturdy docks in the marina reveal the accumulated scars of bashing boats and replaced cleats. Each scar has its own story, some of the scars can be matched to the scars on the boats.

One time the owner of the yacht adjoining mine in the marina was watching the TV evening news and there was a live broadcast report from the marina reporting on the issuance of Lake Wind Warning and the huge swells and white capped waves that the lake was tossing up and the marina was a perfect spot to film such Nature's fury because the waves were overriding the hefty rock breakwater [and even eroding through parts of it] and tearing up a lot of the portion of the sheltering metal and wood break water such that there were large timbers floating about in the marina and the boats were rocking to and fro thereby making for dramatic filming. I did not notice that the T.V. reporter and film crew come out to the end of the dock where my sailboat shares a berth with an adjoining yacht and I was at that moment standing on the swim platform of the adjoining boat attempting to place a line through my chain tie off positioned on the shared stern tie piling so as to secure a line to the adjoining yacht's stern. With each incoming swell the swim platform would submerge soaking me, all the while I was holding the rail of the adjoining yacht with one hand and trying to reach far out to slide the line between my chain tie and the piling without injuring my hand. The non-line fixed stern of the adjoining boat was rocking and riding up and down about five feet and yawing considerably as the uninhibited swells were from the stern's quarter. Apparently it made for pretty dramatic live action of which reporting I was oblivious until I returned some minutes later to the main dock, where the report interviewed me for continuing reporting. I got to see an edited and shortened taped rebroadcast at the 11 o'clock night news. It was a "Hey, that me! moment." The owner of the adjoining yacht that was watching the evening news, did not realize there was a severe storm at the lake with winds coming from the worst direction and length of fetch possible and was seeing that his boat had broken loose and was riding alternatively on top of the dock and then crushingly under the dock, snapping cleats on the vessel and on the dock and breaking lines. You can imagine his shock and anxiety, then partial relief seeing that someone was attending to his yacht and successfully resolving its adversity. My primary [read, selfish] motivation was to keep his adjoining boat from smashing towards and into my properly tied boat in the shared berth arrangement; there being no protective finger pier between our boats. When the adjoining yacht owner and I finally meet up near the end of the season, he recognized me from the TV broadcast and expressed much gratitude for my actions and returned the lines that I had deployed to properly tie up his yacht of which his boat used for the rest of the season.

It is not rocket science, it is merely basic physics and evaluation of forces and of mechanical engineering and material properties. If the forces at play are not major then the method and materials can be less forgiving and be readily capable of taking up the comparatively modest challenge.
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Old 30-03-2019, 18:24   #56
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Images of anchor rollers that were damaged due to rode stresses.

The vertical and sideways loads of a rode can be immense. I have seen many a cleat break or get torn out and cleats are typically massively stronger devices than the rollers which rollers are intended to just provide for deployment and retrieval of the anchor when NOT under load and to just hold the anchor on deck. Do not lead the snubber lines over the rollers, nor a rode that is under an set anchor's load.

Just as you should not attempt to break your anchor free by applying vertical tension on the rode with the vertical forces applied directly to the roller and windlass, one should not use the roller as a load carrying device for your rode during anchoring.

I have watched boaters drive their boats forward when at anchor retrieving the rode as they approach over the anchor's location and then just let the boat's windlass or anchor stopper pin take up the vertical tension to pull the set anchor free from the bottom, instead of reapplying a snubber to take up the shock load. If they are lucky the clutch on the windlass will slip and only some friction wear will be derived but if the clutch is set hard or a chain stopper pin is set, that is when bad things happen, e.g., the bowsprit bends, the rollers bend, the windlass breaks, the stopper breaks, all because a snubber was not reapplied before incurring significant tension on the rode to break out the anchor. Certainly sometimes the anchor will break away cleanly and easily when very little scope and angle is derived after retrieving the deployed rode but at other times the anchor is set hard or even entangled on a hard object, log, corral, rocks, cable, etc. in which case it will not break free easily, instead things on the deck bend or break.
I agree I think the shots we are seeing here are from boats where the roller was used to lift an anchor that was fouled. And perhaps a weak roller could be pulled sideways from sailing at anchor, but I haven't seen it and I have a hard time imagining that kind and strength of lateral force occurring. But I wouldn't agree that this is an indictment of using rollers for anchor rodes and/or using rollers to run snubbers. Many rollers are, or should be, plenty strong to handle the loads necessary. However when an anchor is stuck, and you keep trying to lift it, something is going to give. Having tried in vain to hoist a recalcitrant anchor once or twice, and then diving on it, I discovered in my youth that I was being really dumb. Following those experiences I resolved that if I thought for a moment that the anchor might become jammed I would put a buoy on it, with a line strong enough to pull the anchor out backwards. And that has saved my roller, rode and anchor a few times until I felt I knew where most of the rocks were in most of the anchorages I visit. And this also applies to anchors that have buried themselves so deeply that pulling them straight up just doesn't work. Now I know many folks don't appreciate buoys and polypro lines littering an anchorage and snagging the outboards on RIBs, and I agree. But, done right, I accept anyone's correct use of buoys to assure they identify the location of, and ability to retrieve, their anchor. I would never consider using polypro for that, and there are good ways to assure a heavy line will not foul on the anchor it is trying to protect.
Sorry if that was a bit of drift there
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Old 30-03-2019, 19:34   #57
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

thinking a bit about the suggestion to attach snubber(s) to the midship cleats (not going through bow chocks, but directly).

This would reduce the anchor loads added to the rode from the bow pitching upwards, and if the critical issue is dislodging the anchor, this might be a help. But if one has an adequately sized and set anchor, then dislodging is not likely, even with the pitching load added in. In that case, I think that, lacking the downward vector on the bow provided by the snubber, pitching would become more severe with added discomfort for the crew.

Just something to consider...

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Old 30-03-2019, 19:45   #58
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

I'm glad to maintain responsibility in case response ability is required too.
We use a tiny girl and our responsibility is to prevent the response ability of chain smashing gel coat; hence a fabric line that once was a rope as our rode.
A beautiful read Montanan, Don; thanx.

Regarding your quest Sam, I'd look into removing edge such that you may brace that anchor line along the gunnel with whatever appropriate method that doesn't smash her hull . If possible you could uses snubbers and a mild bow brace although the 'mild bow brace' is the chain secured from damage which wouldn't want to include snap or hull hits.

I'd learnt to assist another while learning to protect twin mooring line vessels in a beam storm.

Sailing is an art I'll never learn completely, it is continually changing.
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Old 31-03-2019, 01:41   #59
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

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Written English may be a second language for some.


In fact, I use a Dyneema bridle when I use a Nylon rode. Less chafe, better control of the angle, and I don't need the stretch.


(Chain vs. rope is unrelated to the OP's question. Different topic. I've used each quite a bit, generally reserving rope for smaller boats, where cutting is less of a risk, weight matters, and you don't have a windlass.)


I use a dyneema strop but I have an all chain rode so it’s easy to pass it through a link in the chain and then secure it to a cleat. This has the added advantage of being easy to remove under load if necessary.

How do you attach your dyneema bridle to your nylon rode?
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:06   #60
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Re: Anchoring over bow rollers?

You don’t need a snubber at all on your system. With only 10’ of chain there is no need. What you lack is enough chain. I’d replace your entire with at least 150’ of chain followed by another 150’ rope rope. The depth of your anchorage location will determine how much chair / rope you let let out and if you need a snubber at all. Remember use at least 5 to 1 ratio for chain. If you’re in 30’ of water that’s 150’ of chain. Since you are at the end of your chain now, let out another 30’ of the rope rhode to absorb the shock. If you anchor in 15’ of water you won’t use all your chain so you won’t get to the rope and you will need a snubber. I am on the west coast and usually try to set that way. If the winds are expected to be high, 20+Kts, I go with 7 to 1 ratio.
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