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Old 18-03-2023, 06:15   #31
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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Yes, Jedi, but you are really, with your vessel, at the upper end of things.

As it happens, I agree with you, it is an horrible idea. Just because less interference is better. The problem is, that Chotu is seeing degradation of his cruising grounds that he feels is very sad, and detrimental to other cruisers. If we're going to disparage his suggestion, then it is incumbent upon us to come up with a better plan. ...You remember how this works: you just volunteered.

Ann
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OK, this is one approach. I can agree with that.

But donít you have to stop in some areas? There are areas I need to stop in that are heavily regulated by the police. Where there are anchoring restrictions.

Newport Rhode Island is a perfect example. This harbor is one of the only places in that area that you can get a lot of things done for the boat. Especially provisioning. Otherwise, you canít. Thereís not much out there.

Itís essential for me to stop in Newport every time I go by. The second your anchor goes down the boat comes up to you and asks you what you are all about, takes down your boat information, and informs you that you cannot be there more than 14 days. Toward the end of the 14 days they are already irritated at you and trying to remind you itís time to leave.

Yet, I need to stop in this harbor and get some things done every time I go by. It is the only place with all of those resources.

So what am I supposed to do? Just avoid it? Suffer? Not get the provisioning done and eat junk food?

What do you do in these cases?

Because Iím all for voting with my dollars and stuff, but if there are no other choices, what do you do?
The difference is that I have lost all hope of fixing todayís western societyÖ and Florida is one of the better places, the one I chose to deal with. I donít believe it can be fixed.

So that is how I do it. Into Florida where I got my things setup, deal with things that need to be dealt with, then get out of there back to the real world.

How can you fix things when the people in power are corrupted?
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Old 18-03-2023, 06:18   #32
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

The laws already exist to deal with vessels at anchor.
And, the law enforcement is already tasked and paid to enforce those laws.
IMO they are purposely not doing the job to influence public opinion against anchoring and ,by their failure to do their jobs, are allowing and creating the issue.
No New laws are necessary, just enforce the laws already on the books and do the job that they have already been paid to do.
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Old 18-03-2023, 06:25   #33
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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The difference is that I have lost all hope of fixing todayís western societyÖ and Florida is one of the better places, the one I chose to deal with. I donít believe it can be fixed.

So that is how I do it. Into Florida where I got my things setup, deal with things that need to be dealt with, then get out of there back to the real world.

How can you fix things when the people in power are corrupted?
Fair point.

Look no further than BenZís post in this thread to prove it.
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Old 18-03-2023, 06:26   #34
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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Originally Posted by JoetheCobbler View Post
The laws already exist to deal with vessels at anchor.
And, the law enforcement is already tasked and paid to enforce those laws.
IMO they are purposely not doing the job to influence public opinion against anchoring and ,by their failure to do their jobs, are allowing and creating the issue.
No New laws are necessary, just enforce the laws already on the books and do the job that they have already been paid to do.
Yeah, but the laws stink. Anchoring limits? I don’t think that’s the solution.
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Old 18-03-2023, 07:29   #35
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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...if you don't want to show ID, you are not obligated to use the anchorage if the anchorage rules require ID. Go elsewhere. You do not have to use THAT specific anchorage to be able to use the waterways...
That's not true everywhere. In some areas there are very few options and the waterways are getting more use than they can really support.

Coastal cruisers need a place to drop the hook each night. Local boaters need marinas and mooring fields to store their boats long-term. In many areas there just isn't enough room for all the demand. Mooring fields and floating live-aboard communities encroach on traditional anchorages.

It's a "Tragedy of the Commons" dilemma. If everyone tries to use the resource, we destroy it. If only a few are allowed to use it, that's not fair to the rest.

I agree with the comment that with freedom comes responsibility.

Unfortunately for some people, responsibility only happens if there are consequences, which means some kind of enforcement. And there will always be those who have nothing to lose by abandoning their boat, even if we can identify them.
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Old 18-03-2023, 08:07   #36
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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I agree with the comment that with freedom comes responsibility.
We are from the same part of the country. Same values when it comes to that.

I might be a drifter, but there is no shaking how I was raised.
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Old 18-03-2023, 09:37   #37
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

Here I go again....back in the day....one could anchor most anywhere, anytime, without undue concern about much else besides the weather.

Then several things happened. Many of the multi-millionaires living along the waterway were getting peeved at sailboats anchored in front of their homes and spoiling their view. Pathetic, yes, but money can buy politicians. I can elaborate on this for some time.

Secondly, municipal guv'mints saw sailors as being rich folk that needed to spread their wealth around and saw mooring fields as an optimum way to snag some extra cash.

Finally, area marina's, those that havn't been bought out by the condo craze, have been bought out by big conglomerates that have jacked slip fees thru' the roof.

From my point of view, these activities have put a serious dent in sailboat activity as I don't see near the same amount of boat traffic I once saw.

No idea how this will all end, but there will come a time when no more money can be sucked out of a sailor.
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Old 18-03-2023, 10:05   #38
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

Speaking of less traffic, the ICW on the east coast Florida is dead. Hardly any through traffic.

Might be because I’m early season to had north though.
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Old 18-03-2023, 10:17   #39
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

The problem is the abundance of 40- to 50-year-old boats that aren't restorable, aren't insurable and aren't disposable.


The owner looks around and finds a near-homeless person looking for a cheap or free place to live and dumps the vessel to escape paying for cutting up the boat.


Anchorages could be unregulated back in the good old days because there were no near-derelict boats. Neglected wooden boats sank and didn't become floating homeless shelters.


Eliminating these trashed fiberglass boats is a big issue that would improve the quality of cruising for everyone.


I feel some empathy for people who, through bad luck and/or poor choices, end up destitute and find that a derelict boat is their only means of obtaining shelter,



However, I also feel sorry for the people who spend several million on waterfront property and awaken one morning to the sight of a drifter hanging his butt off the stern as he does his morning constitutional.


I'm also not happy with these boats washing up on shore during storms, sewage and other pollution from them poisoning the waters and the unsightly picture they present in waterfront communities.


My solution? States need to set up a program to deal with their disposal. Recycle metals and other valuables, then tag the last registered owners with the balance of the bills.


Any boat found to be unregistered and in unseaworthy condition (no means of propulsion, structural damage, overall unsightliness, etc.) would be towed away and disposed of.


A registered vessel in terrible condition would be cited and given a reasonable amount of time for restoration.


Yeah, it's government intruding on some people's lives. But sometimes they need intruding on when they're creating a mess for everyone else.


And yeah, it hurts people who live on boats and don't have any money. But really, in the 21st century, you have no business owning a sizeable boat if you don't have a thick wallet.


It costs so much to maintain a boat these days that if you don't have money, it is inevitable that your vessel will end up an eyesore.
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Old 18-03-2023, 10:28   #40
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
This canít be overstated. Totally agree, be respectful, not argumentative, and cooperate to the fullest extent of the law. But by the same token law enforcement's actions need to not overstep their authority, and trample the law.

During the stop it is not time to talk about rights. Actually, it's EXACTLY the time to be talking about your rights! Thatís for the court date if you have one. Why should a law abiding citizen be required to take time out of my life, take time off from work, spend money, hire an attorney and go to court because he didn't allow his rights to be trampled?

A lot of people donít seem to understand this. Subservience and friendly respect is what you do when you are dealing with the authorities. Absolutely agree to the respect, but no need to be subservient.

The place to fight is the court room if you had to go to one.

More often than not even if there is a problem they will let you go if youíre nice to them.
Sometime yes, sometimes no. The no times can really suck.

Me again: On a public boat dock, Sand Island, Honolulu, I once had a local LEO attempt to board my boat and demand to see my identification. Even though I had no legal obligation to provide it to him, I saw no harm in showing him ID in this case. I gave him my Military ID Card. He said "No, I need to see your Driver's License."

Well, that didn't end the way he wanted. I refused. He stated that he could have me arrested for failing to ID myself. I politely and respectively (not subserviently) stated that I would not resist an illegal arrest with no legal grounds, but the City, and County of Honolulu would then be open to a lawsuit for false arrest, as, even though I had no legal obligation to ID myself, I had. Anyway, it went nowhere. He blustered, and shouted, I remained respectful. He then demanded Driver's licenses from the other people on the boat. They respectively offered up their Military ID's. He about burst a blood vessel, then he left.

I can only assume the reason that he demanded a driver's license is that he wanted to run it for warrants? Oh, and I'm pretty sure that there is not even any legal requirement for someone, on a boat, to carry a valid ID at all times in all 50 states. Maybe a boater's Education card in some states, WA being an example, but not everywhere.

Another fallacy in your suggestion, is you seem to think that the person aboard a particular boat is in fact the legal owner. Many times that is not the case, it may be a family member, it may be a friend, the boat may be under charter, so tying the person on the boat, (who's ID the LEO is required to obtain under your proposal) to the person responsible to pay for removal of a derelict at some future point in time is unworkable.

Regarding Fore and Aft's suggestion, and Madehn's endorsement regarding "setting up a boat wreckers that pays $500 for every wreck delivered to their jetty", there are legal issues there as well. Such as; who determines when a boat is a "wreck"? What legal right does a private company, a private individual, or a gov't have to seize personal property (the boat) without due process? I've seen boats at anchor, and on the dock that look pretty bad, disassembled, with stuff everywhere, that once work was accomplished, turned out to be very nice boats. Does lack of attention to brightwork make a boat a "wreck"? How about not cleaning of the seagull deposits for two weeks? Does THAT make it a "wreck"? How about the boat that that recently experienced a dismasting, and the remains of the sails, mast, boom were fastened on the cabin top or deck to the best of the mariners ability with the tools at his/her disposal while out at sea. Come in to the harbor, anchor, owner heads to shore to arrange repairs, boat looks like a "wreck", so by all means, tow it off to the jetty for the $500 "bounty"! What could possibly be wrong with that? And while enroute, let's just rifle through the cabin for any nice stuff to relocate to the tow boat! It's all legal, right?!? Free stuff, and a $500 prize to top it off! Heh, I'm all in.

As to the idea of charging an annual fee on every law abiding boat owner for "derelict boat removal" sounds good, and has merit . . . provided that money is fenced off and only used for derelict boat removal. In WA State, the same agency that handles derelict boat removal also has a lot to do with fighting wildfires. Two years ago, very few derelict boats we removed in WA State, because there weren't sufficient funds. The fees collected for derelict boat removal had all been diverted, and used to fight wildfires . . . . so there have to be legal protections established to prevent that, otherwise the funds will be raided to pay for totally unrelated purposes.
And Chotu, aren't you supposed to be working on your app?
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Old 18-03-2023, 11:27   #41
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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That's not true everywhere. In some areas there are very few options and the waterways are getting more use than they can really support.

Coastal cruisers need a place to drop the hook each night. Local boaters need marinas and mooring fields to store their boats long-term. In many areas there just isn't enough room for all the demand. Mooring fields and floating live-aboard communities encroach on traditional anchorages.

It's a "Tragedy of the Commons" dilemma. If everyone tries to use the resource, we destroy it. If only a few are allowed to use it, that's not fair to the rest.

I agree with the comment that with freedom comes responsibility.

Unfortunately for some people, responsibility only happens if there are consequences, which means some kind of enforcement. And there will always be those who have nothing to lose by abandoning their boat, even if we can identify them.
I meant in a legal sense, not a practical one. If you don't like the rules at any of the places available to you, you have the option to simply not have a boat, or not use the waterways in that area. It may not seem like a particularly GOOD option, but that isn't terribly relevant legally - there's no Constitutionally protected right to own a boat and be able to use the waterways and facilities in whatever way you want regardless of the rules/requirements instituted by state/local officials or private owners.

The person I replied to seemed to be trying to say that he wouldn't have to abide by a rule to show ID because of his Constitutional rights. I'm just saying that's not how it works - you're opting in to following the rules of the facility you're using, it's not at all the same as someone walking down a public street and the police turn up and demand ID for no reason.
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Old 18-03-2023, 12:26   #42
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

There is also no constitutional right to own a house with a view over clear water without boats. Discussions using one sided arguments go nowhere.

I believe that boats go #1 where it concerns use of coastal waters, with adjacent house owners having no say whatsoever over them.
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Old 18-03-2023, 13:05   #43
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

BlueH2OBound: yes. I am supposed to be working on an app. Very frustrated because the signal is pretty weak here where I am. I’m having difficulties getting anything to work.

Where is that star link thread again? Ha ha ha. Still not willing to pay for that.
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Old 18-03-2023, 13:06   #44
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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...there's no Constitutionally protected right to own a boat and be able to use the waterways and facilities in whatever way you want regardless of the rules/requirements instituted by state/local officials or private owners...
I totally agree. The problem is that there is a right to navigation, which actually pre-dates the constitution. There are also federal laws pertaining to navigation which preempt state and local regulations. It's complicated, and there are competing rights and lots of grey areas.

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There is also no constitutional right to own a house with a view over clear water without boats.
Although I also agree with this statement, I think it's over-used by the boating community to vilify the "rich waterfront land owners." It's true that they do tend to be over-zealous and have political clout. Ever notice how the "manatee" zones seem to cluster around the areas of highest property values? I wonder how the manatees know?

I'd love to own property overlooking a nice anchorage. But I'd hate to see that anchorage filled up with near-homeless boat bums permanently anchored in derelict boats. My point is we can only solve this if we're all respectful of the real issues and each others' concerns. We (boaters) should be on the same side of the issue as property owners. We both really want the same thing.
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Old 18-03-2023, 13:27   #45
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Re: A solution for derelict boats!

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The police cannot ID someone without reasonable articulate suspicion that the person has committed is committing or is about to commit a crime.

You must hate the constitution and want to deny people rights. I hope you are not a US citizen because this is the wrong type of way of thinking and not the type of person I want to share the country with.

I was recently arrested in florida for refusing to identify to the police. They had no right to ID me. The judge said I am innocent. Now I can sue the police. I will end up costing the city of key west thousands of dollars because the police didnt respect my rights.

If a cop asks me for ID I refuse: MY RIGHTS MY RIGHTS I will NEVER SHUT UP about MY RIGHTS.
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Your "rights" are long gone. I think you are out cruising. I remember you. I like you. You have a lot of unique and thoughtful philosophies.

but anyway your rights are long gone.

Sean's right. The whole system of American jurisprudence depends on that whole reasonable articulable suspicion (probable cause) thing. Anchoring somewhere is generally not a crime in and of itself*, ergo generally no law enforcement cause exists to stop and search and so forth.

(*In places where it might actually be prohibited by ordnance, I'd expect serious signage all over the place making that clear to everybody and his brother in advance.)

Of course there's a time and place to assert citizen's rights, and sometimes "go with the flow for now" is prudent.

Otherwise, inviting a system where you're treated as guilty until proven innocent is well past the "slippery slope" idea.

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