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wolfgal · 15-02-2021, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Mason

Such a interesting topic Wolfgal. What I read in your post is the process of grief. It is not something most of us are familiar with, partly because we have never learned the vocabulary for it, daresay embraced it. Society has disenfranchised it, viewed it as dark....

hi Greg,

very true, western society does not really deal with death. 'disenfranchised' is a well-chosen way to describe it. will get back to this...

a few people (kindly and subtly) suggested that Sam could feel resentment or whatever. but, more and more, my feeling is that he is outright frightened of what lies just over the horizon, and his goal right now is to clear his conscience of anything that carries negativity.

so many turn to religion and/or spirituality at these moments of their lives, and i think that this is where he is right now. he wants to feel forgiven, to free himself of any bad thoughts, bad ties to his conscience. i don't know; this is just my feeling, perhaps my projection. in any case, i know now (through these discussions) that the only thing the living can give to the dying is peace, so that's what i'm going to give.

as for the boat's demise: i literally cringe when people give themselves pollution-rights, but i accept to not say anything, unless i see an insert-space and feel i can make a difference... and it would be great to talk to him about legacy as an intro to this kind of discussion (good idea), but i've a feeling that he cannot go there, yet. not sure. but, yes, i will be open, ready to give it a go, if the moment seems right.

as for your other questions, i'm really not as emotionally involved in this as it may seem. it is partly about grieving, i guess, but it is more about those lines we do not cross, those things we do or do not say, when someone is on their deathbed. we can state how the west is disenfranchised with death, but it is not that easy to describe what shapes this takes, what is silenced about it. it is not clear how bring it to the table and unpack it.

and there are those silenced-sacred things that we feel uneasy about. and perhaps, the title of this thread points directly to one of these silenced-sacred things. and it hits nerves i think: there was even someone who lashed out a bit at me here asking how i could possibly question a dying man's wish. he misunderstood my propos (and that's ok)... but his reaction is that thing i'm grappling with, those lines we can and cannot cross when it comes to talking about passing. (i'm not expressing myself well here, sorry. i'm starting to talk in circles, must be tired)

anyway, this thread's discussion has been very informative, comprehensive and helpful to me (and possibly others). i feel more more prepared now for whatever communication i have with him and others.

great post Greg.

thanks

wolfgal · 15-02-2021, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxwizz

Is assisting a suicide, in any way, illegal. Can you be charged?
With a criminal record, you may never be able to leave your native country again....For life.

misunderstanding alert: he is not asking for assistance from me or anyone else. the idea of doing it his way is his life raft right now, keeping him going...

there are surely rules concerning this kind of thing, surely. actually, have you noticed how these days there are just so many rules? for instance, read an article today about a couple who were arrested in singapore today for being together without quarantining for fifteen days.

right rudder · 15-02-2021, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgal

Hey Dan,

i've seen you around for a long time. haven't ever responded to your input. but you make some very good points here:

"One can wish for certain things to happen but sometimes life does not give one the choice..."

so true, life catches us off guard, gives us a crushing blow. it happens, so often, and eventually to all of us.

and you question choices as if to ask how much of them we actually get in life. could determining our lives in this way be a response to a fundamental need? the feeling of trying to outrun the storm, getting ahead of the possibility of being put into a coma... could this be traced back to our fundamental survival instincts? seems likely, from this perspective

and i had not applied this choice question to the fact that men disappearing at sea... Was this what happened in that film, All is Lost: all was lost in Redford's mind before the container hit him, the rest was just the unfolding?

disappearing at sea definitely has a way of taking us from here to wherever (the infinite) with much grace. and it can easily be viewed as a return to the source too

my guess is that doing a poll on here asking this question would confirm your thoughts.

and i guess it is just unfortunate that a beautiful boat, one that could provide beautiful stories for others, is often part of the plan. personally, if it came down to it, i do hope i'll find that friend who helps me in such a way so that i can donate mine...

thanks Dan!

Joshua Slocum comes to mind in reading this. All of his hard earned experience became nothing more than a weighted yoke upon his shoulders. He wasn't interested in steel/steam, his forte was wood/canvas, age was also rapidly narrowing his choices.

I firmly believe Slocum was not "lost" at sea, he went home to the sea.

wolfgal · 15-02-2021, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

It's hard to imagine anything more personal than choosing when, where, and how to die. (assuming one has the rare luxury of choice in the matter) But given the choice between leaving this mortal coil in a brightly lit, noisy, kinetic hospital, with tubes thrust into every natural and several custom-made bodily orifices, or checking-out on the deck of my beloved ketch and riding her down into the abyss to join 100,000 other vessels and a couple of million seamen......well, it would be an easy decision for me. And then there is the question; did he ask for your input, or just honor you with the sharing of his thoughts?

hi Chris Cringle,

good question! yes, he honoured me, and i honoured him as well and will continue to do so. i respect the choice and completely agree with you as to the same choice you'd make, to opt out of being tubed-up in artifice.

my focus is actually elsewhere. it is not easy to put into words (and i'm not the best writer). my focus is on what i can and cannot say, where those 'silenced' lines are drawn and how i'm working out the knots. in the beginning of the thread, i put it this way:

"yes, i can accept his dying wish and will ...because that’s what we, the living, do. after all, it is not me who is dying. but, this means that i cannot suggest to him how gifting his boat could leave a beautiful memory of him and/or change someone's life in huge way; nor can i mention how, for many, polluting the planet is unforgivable in this day and age. nor can i mention how it might be nice for him to allow his friends an opportunity to make a final toast, share in his loss, even in a small way... all these suggestions would be me passing judgement, and that's a no-go."

talking about dying and death and the material and the immaterial is not easy. like so many, i'm just trying to get a broader perspective so to make good decisions.

thanks for your input.

Cadence · 15-02-2021, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgal

hi Chris Cringle,

good question! yes, he honoured me, and i honoured him as well and will continue to do so. i respect the choice and completely agree with you as to the same choice you'd make, to opt out of being tubed-up in artifice.

my focus is actually elsewhere. it is not easy to put into words (and i'm not the best writer). my focus is on what i can and cannot say, where those 'silenced' lines are drawn and how i'm working out the knots. in the beginning of the thread, i put it this way:

"yes, i can accept his dying wish and will ...because that’s what we, the living, do. after all, it is not me who is dying. but, this means that i cannot suggest to him how gifting his boat could leave a beautiful memory of him and/or change someone's life in huge way; nor can i mention how, for many, polluting the planet is unforgivable in this day and age. nor can i mention how it might be nice for him to allow his friends an opportunity to make a final toast, share in his loss, even in a small way... all these suggestions would be me passing judgement, and that's a no-go."

talking about dying and death and the material and the immaterial is not easy. like so many, i'm just trying to get a broader perspective so to make good decisions.

thanks for your input.

I don't know you have a decision to make. It is his prerogative, honor that as a friend.

wolfgal · 15-02-2021, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenhigbee

The weak point in the Captain's plan is the difficulty of scuttling a boat without supervision of a live skipper. Perhaps a better plan would be making arrangements to have the boat towed out for sea burial with him in it after his death, with arrangements made to first have it properly prepared for environmentally-safe scuttling.

If he were to open a seacock then put a bullet in his brain, there is no assurance that it goes down where and when intended, and that something doesn't plug up the thru-hull long enough for it to drift inland or otherwise cause a navigation hazard. And no captain should consider intentional scuttling without first removing all fuel tanks, engines, and other environmental hazards.

thanks for this comment, stevenhigbee!

navigational hazard, sea pollution, things going wrong... there is the romantic view (which i whole-heartedly respect and embrace) and there is the reality of murphy's law, of what it means to be responsible in this day and age.

thanks for highlighting this.

wolfgal · 15-02-2021, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by George DuBose

Actually, I have considered "being lost at sea" if I ever am diagnosed with an incurable. Drowning takes 6-10 minutes if one doesn't fight it. Beats lying in a hospital for 6 months on pain medicine.

As far as a good way to dispose of a fiberglass boat, there are firms in the UK and EU that are now recycling fiberglass hulls by grinding them into a powder, mixing it with concrete and making building blocks.

Finally, someone has figured out a way to dispose of derelict hulls.

Thanks George DuBose

Boatie mentioned this early on intros thread: maybe some CF member would be inspired to build easy-sink, biodegradable wooden boats.

seems they could be in high demand given so many of us do aspire to be lost at sea...

BugzyCan · 15-02-2021, 12:12

I haven't seen anyone mention the possibility that "Sam" is an active member of this forum, and is reading every post trying to decide what to do, or that the OP IS Sam..

Well, sometimes online chats can be deceiving.

kazo · 15-02-2021, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

I haven't seen anyone mention the possibility that "Sam" is an active member of this forum, and is reading every post trying to decide what to do, or that the OP IS Sam..

Well, sometimes online chats can be deceiving.

good point...

jtsailjt · 15-02-2021, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

I haven't seen anyone mention the possibility that "Sam" is an active member of this forum, and is reading every post trying to decide what to do, or that the OP IS Sam..

Well, sometimes online chats can be deceiving.

What you say is generally true but I have a very strong feeling this OP has been very sincere about her situation.

Also, I’ve gotten to know countless sailors over the years, but never met a single one who said they were on this forum or any other, and I’ve never read a CF post and thought to myself “I know that person.” So I think it’s pretty unlikely that he’d be reading this forum. Compared to the number sailors out there, relatively few read or post on CF.

Cadence · 15-02-2021, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

What you say is generally true but I have a very strong feeling this OP has been very sincere about her situation.

Also, I’ve gotten to know countless sailors over the years, but never met a single one who said they were on this forum or any other, and I’ve never read a CF post and thought to myself “I know that person.” So I think it’s pretty unlikely that he’d be reading this forum. Compared to the number sailors out there, relatively few read or post on CF.

It sounds as though she has made her mind up. Franky whether he does or doesn't is really not her decision. Maybe showing him some empathy and talking him out of it, would be time better spent than discussing it here.
Or is this a drama?

**hpeer** · 15-02-2021, 15:14

Er, I know several CF posters personally. And I am pretty reclusive.

Thats not counting lurkers, of whom I also know a few.

**Jim Cate** · 15-02-2021, 15:54

Quote:

Also, I’ve gotten to know countless sailors over the years, but never met a single one who said they were on this forum or any other, and I’ve never read a CF post and thought to myself “I know that person.” So I think it’s pretty unlikely that he’d be reading this forum. Compared to the number sailors out there, relatively few read or post on CF.

You might be surprised! We've found that quite a few CFers are folks we've known for years... sometimes discovered only after lengthy correspondence on other subjects. And that's been fun for us.

Further, we've been quite surprised when strangers have come up to us, either whilst at anchor or ashore, and introduced themselves as CF "fans" of ours (Ann and I). They've identified us by our boat, seen at anchor nearby, We enjoy such meetings and have made some good friends via CF.

The above has mostly been in Australian waters, but a few have been in other South Pacific areas.

But none of this really relates to Wolfgal's situation. I suspect she knows "Sam" well enough to judge whether he might be on board or not. WG, you've received a lot of thoughtful advice here and I hope that it has eased your mind re Sam's requests.

Jim