Why are fuel dock prices so high?

[Alan Wheeler]

And fuel is rising so fast here, today puts GMac list out of date. Diesel has now been set at NZ$1.86/ltr and 10Cents to the out of town stations.

[GordMay]

U.S. Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update, and much more information:
Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update

[cooper]

It is an interesting thing to watch the discussion on fuel prices. We talk about the artificial bench marks that are imposed on us. The price of petrol and other allied fuels have never represented the true cost of the use of the product. The third bottom line. As I have said previously, the "market" dictates the price. Just last week "someone threatened to bomb someone" ...price goes up.
The hipppies of the 60/70s where right.
Are we going to be clever enough to look to solutions that are not simply a fix for now and that the ramifications of the "solution" shoved on future generations. Sadly I think not. It would be a bit like proponents of nuclear, including in their corporate prospectus and business cost structure and analysis a full costing of a waste facility for the next 10 000 years. I hear over again " but in the real world that is not practical". My guess is that some day soon it will be for someone...pity we are making their lives so hard. Thats our kids.......
The next person who says to me "we need cheap oil prices so our kids can have jobs" sorry I will smile and walk away......

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by dacust

But if I was cruising offshore I'd go sailboat. You may temporarily run out of fuel during a calm, but you'll eventually get wind. I run out in my boat I'm "sunk".

Do not write all power boats off.


As an example of off shore fuel usage, in my previous occupation, on one boat I was on, we trolled for tuna hundreds of miles west of NZ (north of King Island to south of Greymouth) for weeks at a time. As a full displacement 40 tonner, on average we'd burn ½ litre (0.13 gallons) p/nm @ trolling speed of 5kts & 1 litre (0.26 gallons) p/nm @ at cruising speed (not hull speed) of 8kts. If we take a single modern (high torque to rpm) diesel (with computer/electronic fuel injection) & mated it with a controllable pitch prop (like the Nordic countries use), then we would save more fuel.


In the above example, 400 gallons fuel would get a range total of 1,514 nm @ 8kts. If we were to place a reduced size gaff ketch rig on the boat (like old north sea trawlers) then we'd probably get another 2+ kts in favourable winds. If we redesigned the boat to have a fine entry & less beam then we'd get even more fuel savings (or could substitute with a longer wheelhouse (i.e. slightly more windage)).


The key is in the design of the power boat. If you're a typical sports fisher or have excessive freeboard & windage (like some Nordhaven's) then you won't save as much fuel as a deep (not too beamy) & fine entry trawler that can turn the largest sized prop possible.


Fuel prices may well have increased, but this speculation will end like all bubbles do, at that point the prices will stabilise. Having said that, if you are big enough to carry a lot of fuel (thousands of gallons), then you can choose which foreign ports to refuel & still plot a straight line course to your waypoint whereas the sailboat may not be able to.


Fuel economy does exist, but like everything else with boating, it requires designing & planning for it.


Please note that I am in no way stating that its cheaper to use power over sail (that argument involves many variables), I'm just stating that it does not have to be excessively expensive as sometimes claimed.

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by GMac

I thought rigging and so on but offset that against fuel filters, servicing, oil changes and the things motors just consume.

Servicing a diesel should be as periodic on a sailboat as it is on a motorboat - regardless if its used as much or not.


On the east coast, we once had to rescue some yuppie yachtie from Auckland whom had blown his sails (in 30-40 kts) & couldn't start his engine & was being blown out to sea & panicking about his diabetic crew with their lack of insulin injections. We later found out from the local police (after they inquired into the whole incident) that he hadn't been servicing his engine. We should have sent him the damn bill for the diesel & time we wasted (given we were still fishing).

[dacust]

Originally Posted by exfishnz

Do not write all power boats off.

You are absolutely correct. But for my budget (I am still paying on a loan for my $40,000 used boat), I can't find anything that will be efficient enough with the features I want. Nordhavn is my dream. An Albin 25 has the efficiency but isn't quite big enough for me. But I'm considering the Albin. 1gph at 6knots is pretty good. But fitting it with a 100 gal tank would be problematic. And getting in a genset and AC. And fitting some kind of removable hard top or permanently enclosing it (so the AC has a chance of actually working) would be a job.

SO, here's the challenge. You guys come up with suggestions for a boat for me.

I started a new thread for this: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post172266

[sparty]

There is one problem with purchasing fuel at gas stations vx marinas. That being, if everyone starts that, there will soon be no marinas selling fuel. In our area, as well as others, numerous fuel docks and marina's have closed in recent years as the land values, taxes, expenses, and etc have all increased to the point where it was more feasible to sell the land for Condo's than to service boaters.

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by dacust

Nordhavn is my dream.

OK, but don't forget that their excessive freeboard (windage) & beam actually adds to fuel consumption. Better to go long, narrow, deep & slow.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by exfishnz

OK, but don't forget that their excessive freeboard (windage) & beam actually adds to fuel consumption. Better to go long, narrow, deep & slow.

You are right. But if I could afford a Nordhavn, fuel consumption would probably not really be as much of an issue anymore. My dream is the 62. I have seen one used for under a mil. Most are more like 1.5. Something like 30 times my budget. I am sure it will just always be a dream. Dream vs. goal. My goal is what I talk about in the other thread. Goals are not always accomplished, either. I may end up sticking with what I got. Or, come close with an Albin 25.

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by dacust

You are right. But if I could afford a Nordhavn, fuel consumption would probably not really be as much of an issue anymore. My dream is the 62. I have seen one used for under a mil. Most are more like 1.5.

OK.

Ironically, you can custom build a comparable volume vessel (with a commercial type finish) for half the price of a new Nordhavn. Furthermore, with a longer lwl & less windage, you'll get better fuel mileage.

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by GMac

I had to put some in on Sunday from our local fuel dock - US$7.10 a gallon (converted)

Oh the pain.... all 4 gallons or 2 months worth of it

I know nobody is really interested in UK fuel prices as I have found out before, but we currently have a tanker driver strike in the UK, normally at the moment we are paying for diesel £1.30 ($2.60 USD) per litre or £5.90 ($11.80 USD) per gallon, but some local dealers are today charging £1.99 ($4.00 USD) per litre or £8.95 ($17.90 USD) per gallon.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by ireaney

I know nobody is really interested in UK fuel prices as I have found out before, but we currently have a tanker driver strike in the UK, normally at the moment we are paying for diesel £1.30 ($2.60 USD) per litre or £5.90 ($11.80 USD) per gallon, but some local dealers are today charging £1.99 ($4.00 USD) per litre or £8.95 ($17.90 USD) per gallon.

Yikes! That almost physically hurts..

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by ireaney

I know nobody is really interested in UK fuel prices as I have found out before, but we currently have a tanker driver strike in the UK, normally at the moment we are paying for diesel £1.30 ($2.60 USD) per litre or £5.90 ($11.80 USD) per gallon, but some local dealers are today charging £1.99 ($4.00 USD) per litre or £8.95 ($17.90 USD) per gallon.

Hello ireaney,

I've visited the motherland (England) before, so have always been aware of higher fuel prices there. However, on a percentage basis, haven't they been going up the same as the rest of us?

Re: fuel protests, I did read in the paper the other day about the fishermen protests in France & Ireland, also the trucker protests across Italy, France & Spain.

Re: the oil price bubble, the problem is that the investment banks can put 6% down on the value of the contract. Until the US govt knocks this on the head (which hopefully might be soon - as its an election year) then the better.

You know, I've been watching the north sea trawlers come up for sale over the past couple of years. Seems to be a bit of a small market whereas they're been bought cheap & then sailed to South America (cheaper labor) for yacht conversion - with the intension of using their large fuel tanks to fill up at cheaper ports (i.e. Venezuela, Gibraltar, Malaysia etc).

[ireaney]

Hi Exfishnz

Unfortunately in the UK tax on fuel imposed by our stupid government is 81.5% of the actual pump price.

Please see the attached link, which is a little out of date because fuel today when I filled up was £1.34 per litre for diesel - bloody outrageous.

What is going to happen to all the Gin Palaces that we have in our Marinas when in October this year all boat diesel will be taxed the same as car diesel, they hardly ever move now, they won't move at all then.

Fuel Tax - PetrolPrices.com

Ian

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by ireaney

Hi Exfishnz

Unfortunately in the UK tax on fuel imposed by our stupid government is 81.5% of the actual pump price.

Please see the attached link, which is a little out of date because fuel today when I filled up was £1.34 per litre for diesel - bloody outrageous.

What is going to happen to all the Gin Palaces that we have in our Marinas when in October this year all boat diesel will be taxed the same as car diesel, they hardly ever move now, they won't move at all then.

Fuel Tax - PetrolPrices.com

Ian

Heh... it would cost $280USD to fill a Hummer with petrol, in the UK. And I thought there were no dealerships because of the narrow streets...