Used boat market 2nd half 2022?

[argosail]

I know the used market for anything has been nuts, boats, cars, bikes, etc. But now that interest rates are rising to curb inflation and the stock market losing a lot of ground, do you foresee the used sailboat market returning to a "buyers market" this year?

[Rumrace]

I think it’s just the North American market in decline. Beneteau predicted it when they closed the yacht factory. They have added a couple power boat additions.
New boats are not selling in the volume to drive used back down.
In Canada free trade with Europe and Japan changed the rules dramatically. Like 40,000 less on 40’
Tariffs taxes against the US from 50 trade partners has just been repaired by current administration. 4 US brands moved European production to Poland. All owned by Beneteau.
GM boycotted in Canada all fleets.
A few more brands will vanish before any market recovery.
Insurance has pretty much condemned purchase of a Ex rental boat. ( repaired hurricane damage, sure)
Old boats need more parts for insurance than the hull is worth.
The best deal right now seems new while the dollar is still flush.

[argosail]

You are right regards to Poland. I saw that VIKO is starting to sell boats in the US and Canada, a sub 100k sailing yacht brand new for 25ft to 30ft or so from what I recall visiting the boat show">Annapolis boat show. Sadly the boat didn't make it to see it in person. Will be interesting how this brand will be adopted here.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by argosail

I know the used market for anything has been nuts, boats, cars, bikes, etc. But now that interest rates are rising to curb inflation and the stock market losing a lot of ground, do you foresee the used sailboat market returning to a "buyers market" this year?

It depends on what size boat. I'm expecting that interest rate hikes will cause many indebted owners of higher cost boats to want to sell by the fall.

Longer term, it seems that all these insurance hassles might see a lot of dumping of older boats.

[Snerf1]

The correct answer is to first ask a three part question

1. How long has the mass pleasure craft market existed?

Since the wide spread use of fiberglass first began in the 60s

2 what are optional, non productive leisure time and activities based on?

Fossil fuel surplus

3 how long has the party lasted, and how much time is remaining?

Began after ww1 when Baku & tx fields were developed. After a last ditch effort at fracking and oil sands, n America and ME is now in true decline

---

It doesn't matter if you believe these facts to be untrue. Policy initiatives have been established to force a transition to "renewables"

The fact that renewables produce a fraction of current ff energy is not lost on planners; it's a feature, not a bug

That's what agw carbon trading, build, back better, universal basic income, food supplements, etc are all about. Form a subsistence baseline utilizing a subscription model for housing, transport, health, social credit etc

---

Taken in context, the prudent can see absolute luxuries like boating, car trips, fly aways and other leisure activities will be the very first to go

Virtual reality will be the substitute

[argosail]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It depends on what size boat. I'm expecting that interest rate hikes will cause many indebted owners of higher cost boats to want to sell by the fall.

Longer term, it seems that all these insurance hassles might see a lot of dumping of older boats.

Yes insurance is what pushed me to a late 90's boat but hopefully this will still be OK for at least half a dozen years or so...

[Jubilee39]

Originally Posted by Snerf1

The correct answer is to first ask a three part question

1. How long has the mass pleasure craft market existed?

Since the wide spread use of fiberglass first began in the 60s

2 what are optional, non productive leisure time and activities based on?

Fossil fuel surplus

3 how long has the party lasted, and how much time is remaining?

Began after ww1 when Baku & tx fields were developed. After a last ditch effort at fracking and oil sands, n America and ME is now in true decline

---

It doesn't matter if you believe these facts to be untrue. Policy initiatives have been established to force a transition to "renewables"

The fact that renewables produce a fraction of current ff energy is not lost on planners; it's a feature, not a bug

That's what agw carbon trading, build, back better, universal basic income, food supplements, etc are all about. Form a subsistence baseline utilizing a subscription model for housing, transport, health, social credit etc

---

Taken in context, the prudent can see absolute luxuries like boating, car trips, fly aways and other leisure activities will be the very first to go

Virtual reality will be the substitute

WOW

[argosail]

Originally Posted by Snerf1

The correct answer is to first ask a three part question

1. How long has the mass pleasure craft market existed?

Since the wide spread use of fiberglass first began in the 60s

2 what are optional, non productive leisure time and activities based on?

Fossil fuel surplus

3 how long has the party lasted, and how much time is remaining?

Began after ww1 when Baku & tx fields were developed. After a last ditch effort at fracking and oil sands, n America and ME is now in true decline

---

It doesn't matter if you believe these facts to be untrue. Policy initiatives have been established to force a transition to "renewables"

The fact that renewables produce a fraction of current ff energy is not lost on planners; it's a feature, not a bug

That's what agw carbon trading, build, back better, universal basic income, food supplements, etc are all about. Form a subsistence baseline utilizing a subscription model for housing, transport, health, social credit etc

---

Taken in context, the prudent can see absolute luxuries like boating, car trips, fly aways and other leisure activities will be the very first to go

Virtual reality will be the substitute

I'll have whatever you're smoking please

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Snerf1

1. How long has the mass pleasure craft market existed?

Since the wide spread use of fiberglass first began in the 60s

2 what are optional, non productive leisure time and activities based on?

Fossil fuel surplus

#2 can more broadly be answered as "energy surplus" or abundance; energy is the essential input; the cheaper the energy the greater the overall wealth potential. And abundant energy frees up time for leisure activities, and the discretionary spending possible.

For #1, Sailing is kind of a special case; I'd argue that the manufacture of durable, long-lasting things like sailboats is a more efficient use of oil than just burning it in cars, boats, generators. So I expect that you'll see less of discretionary fuel-intensive activities (big power boats, muscle cars, big domestic SUVS or pickups) before you see a comparable decline in sailing. Unless we're all knocked back to subsistence level by some disaster.

3 how long has the party lasted, and how much time is remaining?

Began after ww1 when Baku & tx fields were developed. After a last ditch effort at fracking and oil sands, n America and ME is now in true decline
---
It doesn't matter if you believe these facts to be untrue. Policy initiatives have been established to force a transition to "renewables"

The fracking party might be close to over, but there's lots of oil yet available in the tarsands. It's dirty oil, and there will be a significant climate and environmental penalty if we're forced to use it more quickly. Like, by a war in Europe.

The fact that renewables produce a fraction of current ff energy is not lost on planners; it's a feature, not a bug

That's what agw, carbon trading, build, back better, universal basic income, food supplements, etc are all about. Form a subsistence baseline utilizing a subscription model for housing, transport, health, social credit etc.

Naaah.

The planet daily receives way more energy than we could ever use, we just have to put down the crack pipe of (formerly) cheap fossil fuels, and get on with the job of collecting it.

Problems with most of our current consumption patterns are real. We will change; it would be nice to do it in a planned and measured way, instead of by rolling crises.

Taken in context, the prudent can see absolute luxuries like boating, car trips, fly aways and other leisure activities will be the very first to go

Virtual reality will be the substitute

Transition away from fossil fuels will cause pain; the longer we put it off the more painful a rushed transition will be.

VR as a substitute? Not in our lifetimes. As a former frontline tech/IT worker, I can tell you that nothing beats nature and real experiences, and that some of the more utopian predictions for tech (eg VR, 100% self-driving cars, etc) are harder and a lot further off than their proponents would have you believe.

In the meantime, ride a bike. Go sailing.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

I think it’s just the North American market in decline. Beneteau predicted it when they closed the yacht factory. They have added a couple power boat additions.
New boats are not selling in the volume to drive used back down.
In Canada free trade with Europe and Japan changed the rules dramatically. Like 40,000 less on 40’
Tariffs taxes against the US from 50 trade partners has just been repaired by current administration. 4 US brands moved European production to Poland. All owned by Beneteau.
GM boycotted in Canada all fleets.
A few more brands will vanish before any market recovery.
Insurance has pretty much condemned purchase of a Ex rental boat. ( repaired hurricane damage, sure)
Old boats need more parts for insurance than the hull is worth.
The best deal right now seems new while the dollar is still flush.

I have looked at Leopard and Balance. You can’t get a Leopard for at least 2 years, Balance not till 2026. From what I can gather most yards are pretty booked out. This may change with the current way the economy (world) is going, but it could go either way.

If you go onto the Moorings/Sunsail brokerage, there is not much available, hence I do not quite believe your comment on insurance of ex charter boats.

Things are constantly changing and anyone who says they know what’s going to happen it guessing!

So as long as the waiting lists are there, then there will be a healthy second hand market.

I personally believe this buyers market bubble will burst at some point….my guess!!!

[Rumrace]

I followed a 2019 440 Jeanneau. Was listed without a price or option list on build. It arrived in 2020 still no price and no air or generator listed so ignored.
2021 the hull still for sale. I meet a guy watching the same boat. Like me he refuses to call mystery boats but finally found out the Boat was in the US and has a tariff of 9.5% and both parties were asking full commission on the sale. The boat was 80,000$ cheaper from Free Trade France.
Beneteau predicted this market when they closed the yacht factory.
New boats need to sell for used boats to match Europe’s price.

[Rumrace]

Sunsail hurricane damage repaired. Tell that to insurance an hand over 10% before you see it. A bunch have VW engines which are not approved anywhere in North America

[PinkHemiCoronet]

First post on the forum. I just bought a 30' Islander mkii ready to sail for $1500 last week. That was in Ithaca, NY. Diesel motor runs like a top. Owner said he listed it for $4000 and didn't get a single inquiry. That forced him to lower the already underpriced boat.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Sunsail hurricane damage repaired. Tell that to insurance an hand over 10% before you see it. A bunch have VW engines which are not approved anywhere in North America

Well, if you buy one of these….

[osprey877]

There is no moorage available anywhere in west coast Canada and very little in pnw USA, so if you buy a boat here make sure it comes with moorage.