Tipping Bareboat Charter Company Staff

[MikeFergie]

On my charter boat my staff do not get tips and I frown apron it. The customer pays for my boat rental with crew and I pay their salaries. I would find tipping them to be insulting as they are doing what they are paid for. I do allow-my staff to take the food left behind and when we catch fish if the client does not want it they can take it home.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I would have to dig out the definition but I believe the USA defines poverty as being in the bottom 15%…

Nope:

Following the Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive 14, the Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Australia does enjoy the benefit of being an island nation with strict immigration controls. That really does help cut down on the number of people that live on govt assistance, so they can be more generous.

This seems like a complete non sequitur. I don’t even know what to say. Immigration, government assistance are certainly not causal factors to poverty rates.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Hmmm, a Google search reveals that the poverty rate in the USA is about 15%. In Australia the data shows it to either be less than 5%, or completely negligible, depending on the source.

Aus. just increased their minimum wage to just shy of $19 AUS. It’s on track to increase to $24.

How much does the average American pay for healthcare alone? What do you think the low-wage Australians pay?

Which country is better for low-wage workers?

We could argue google stats all day... I could argue that the Australia poverty rate is actually at 13.3% and the US rate is 12.7%.



acoss.org.au/poverty
poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-current-poverty-rate-united-states

Mike, I think you and I both would agree that lower wage earners all deserve a life free of poverty, but these statistics arguments don't prove one way or another.
The argument against tipping a low-wage worker sounds rather self-serving. However, to tip for a bareboat charter seems more like the category for housekeeping in a hotel. A bit of a tip for a nice clean room sounds okay to me, but I don't think it is expected. Without face-to-face contact for the service, the human generosity to tip is reduced, I think.

You must understand the tipping irony from the perspective of a person who enjoys the feeling of "helping out" the lower wage earner. As a college student in the US, I barely gave 10% to a waiter and sometimes nothing. As a working adult, I often give more than 15%. When travelling, I try to honor local traditions but I'll give anyway if service was very good.

For someone from another rich country to complain that I have "ruined" the world because my generosity has caused an expectation of extra from all customers is, well, rich indeed. What really are the unintended consequences? A bad system of expectations or better service overall? The ultimate free market would award better money for better service, no? Did someones' feelings get hurt when the American tourist got better service as the waiter knew there was a reward for it? Not apologizing for that.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by cyan

We could argue google stats all day... I could argue that the Australia poverty rate is actually at 13.3% and the US rate is 12.7%….

I was simply following up with your Google stat quoting. I agree, it’s easy to dig up stats to support an argument. Best not to go there...

Originally Posted by cyan

Mike, I think you and I both would agree that lower wage earners all deserve a life free of poverty, but these statistics arguments don't prove one way or another.….

So, I assume you are fully supportive of efforts to raise the minimum wage in your country. That’s great. As I posted earlier, based on productive gains, and without taking into account inflation, it should be around $21/hr. That sounds more like a livable wage.

Originally Posted by cyan

...What really are the unintended consequences? A bad system of expectations or better service overall? The ultimate free market would award better money for better service, no? ...

The unintended consequences — actually, they are quite intentional — is to allow employers to underpay workers and pass of the cost of labour onto others. THIS is the problem with the tipping culture of the USA. It allows businesses to get away with paying a wage that leaves their workers in poverty.

As you said, workers "deserve a life free of poverty.” I fully agree. And it’s easy to do. Just set the minimum wage at a level above the poverty rate.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So, I assume you are fully supportive of efforts to raise the minimum wage in your country.

Not so much. I like that idea somewhat, but I'm a much bigger fan of getting our government much more out of our lives and our businesses.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As you said, workers "deserve a life free of poverty.” I fully agree. And it’s easy to do. Just set the minimum wage at a level above the poverty rate.

Your easy fix has many gotchas that would be fun to debate, but this thread seems to be tipping toward political, so that will have to wait until we share an anchorage and a craft beer. For the record, you won't find me predictably with one political "side" or the other. I prefer to give thought to each issue and, after hearing both sides, decide for myself.
This tip debate is thought-provoking, indeed.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by cyan

...Your easy fix has many gotchas that would be fun to debate, but this thread seems to be tipping toward political, so that will have to wait until we share an anchorage and a craft beer. For the record, you won't find me predictably with one political "side" or the other. I prefer to give thought to each issue and, after hearing both sides, decide for myself.
This tip debate is thought-provoking, indeed.

On this, we can fully agree

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This seems like a complete non sequitur. I don’t even know what to say. Immigration, government assistance are certainly not causal factors to poverty rates.

Your post implied Australia had a lower poverty rate. I was providing details why it's different.

Illegal immigration and govt assistance certainly relate to poverty rates. Depending on who you want to believe, anywhere from 5-15% of the US people living in the USA are illegal aliens or their children. Their reported income is typically well below the average (ie, below the poverty line). Often the following generations income is also well below average. The US census bureau collects data on all individuals (citizen, legal resident & illegal alien) but they aren't allowed to differentiate.

Dump a group of illegal aliens equal to 10% of the population without job prospects/skills into Australia and see how their poverty rates fare. It's disingenuous to ignore key differences when making comparisons.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As you said, workers "deserve a life free of poverty.” I fully agree. And it’s easy to do. Just set the minimum wage at a level above the poverty rate.

I suggest a course in economics. It sounds really good to simply tell the "evil business owner" to give them more money...

In reality, it simply drives up inflation and in short order, the new minimum wage is back below the poverty rate.

You can try the Venezuela model where prices on key commodities are locked in by the govt...but I think we've seen how that worked out. A loaf of bread is cheap enough for anyone to buy....there just are no loaves available.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I suggest a course in economics. It sounds really good to simply tell the "evil business owner" to give them more money...

In reality, it simply drives up inflation and in short order, the new minimum wage is back below the poverty rate.

You can try the Venezuela model where prices on key commodities are locked in by the govt...but I think we've seen how that worked out. A loaf of bread is cheap enough for anyone to buy....there just are no loaves available.

This is not supported by experience or research — perhaps a course in economics is needed? Raising the minimum wage has been shown, over and over again, to lead to economic growth. If you’re theory were correct, then you should argue for all wages to be stagnant, or even better, reduced.

BTW, I said nothing about “evil business owners.” I said the tipping culture allows businesses to artificially keep prices low b/c they’ve externalized the cost of their workers. It’s a common reality in all profit-seeking businesses; again, perhaps I can suggest you take a basic economics course?

As to your connecting immigration (illegal or not) to poverty rates, again I say this is a non sequitur. At best, you’re providing a correlation, not a causation.

I quoted official poverty rates in Australia and the USA, based on each country’s definition. The fact is, the USA has one of the highest poverty rates of any OECD country. It also has one of the lowest legal minimum wage rates, and leads the developed world in the promotion of ’tipping’ as a means of paying workers’ wages. How’s that for a correlation .

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is not supported by experience or research — perhaps a course in economics is needed? Raising the minimum wage has been shown, over and over again, to lead to economic growth. If you’re theory were correct, then you should argue for all wages to be stagnant, or even better, reduced.

We'll have to agree to disagree on what the research says as my college economics professor would have laughed you out of the room.

Of course, your conclusion is flawed. No one suggested lower wages were a positive. The issue is the govt arbitrarily enforcing change and distorting the market. The govt shouldn't be mandating wages. Their role should be to keep the playing field level for all parties not taking sides.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We'll have to agree to disagree on what the research says as my college economics professor would have laughed you out of the room.

Well then, you and your prof seem ignorant of the mountain of data on this subject. It’s been well studied. Seriously …. I can do the research links if you like. The effect of a hike on the minimum wage predictably benefits the larger economy.

What is also predictable is that every time a raise happens, the business folks all come out with their “sky is falling” predictions about lost jobs, lost business, and increased inflation. It rarely happens. Look up the data. It’s there.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Of course, your conclusion is flawed. No one suggested lower wages were a positive. The issue is the govt arbitrarily enforcing change and distorting the market. The govt shouldn't be mandating wages. Their role should be to keep the playing field level for all parties not taking sides.

Governments arbitrarily enforce all manner of decisions which distort the market. From safety regs to enforcement of tort laws, there is no such thing as a “free market.” So why are labour laws (wages being the most basic) any different?

… I can tell you why; because it empowers workers. A worker who is not starving has more ability to negotiate for improved working conditions.

[CatNewBee]

It is a cultural thing.

In Japan, it is offensive to tip, they are proud of their work.
In the US it is offensive to not tip.
In Italy, they force you to tip and the amount is fix, it is on the balance (coperto).

Every country and every culture is different, some see it as greasing the economy, some see it as crime and tax fraud and shadow economy.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We'll have to agree to disagree on what the research says as my college economics professor would have laughed you out of the room.

Sounds like your college economics professor studied at the Heritage Foundation. We don't have to go so far afield on the minimum wage question. In numerous states in the US, the state minimum wage substantially exceeds the federal minimum wage. In fact the majority of US citizens live in states with a higher state minimum wage. So how does the economy and standard of living compare in the high minimum wage states and the low minimum wage states? Well, what do you know! The higher minimum wage states have larger, more successful economies and higher standards of living. Now you might argue which is cause, and which is effect - but you can hardly argue what actually happened.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Sounds like your college economics professor studied at the Heritage Foundation. We don't have to go so far afield on the minimum wage question. In numerous states in the US, the state minimum wage substantially exceeds the federal minimum wage. In fact the majority of US citizens live in states with a higher state minimum wage. So how does the economy and standard of living compare in the high minimum wage states and the low minimum wage states? Well, what do you know! The higher minimum wage states have larger, more successful economies and higher standards of living. Now you might argue which is cause, and which is effect - but you can hardly argue what actually happened.

Very cogent explanation. Now, just add Kansas and Wisconsin to the mix.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Well, what do you know! The higher minimum wage states have larger, more successful economies and higher standards of living. Now you might argue which is cause, and which is effect - but you can hardly argue what actually happened.

Does your "higher standard of living" include more affordable food and housing? If so, then your statements are just wrong.

The states with the lowest minimum wage actually have the lowest cost of living: see Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, etc. Oh, and the areas with the highest minimum wage actually have the highest homeless rate.
usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity/affordability
ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx

You can hardly argue what happened, indeed.

What's the point?
This debate could go on and on, with none of these statistics providing proof on their own, one way or the other. More importantly, did we all agree that a tip on a bareboat charter is a bit over the top?