The Cost of Sailing / Cruising

[osirissail]

- - There appears to be a perceptual split here on what "living costs" include. For the young 20-something person in perfect health and no kids or a female crewmate - he only needs to eat (yeah - beer is in the basic food group), buy potable water, and pay entry/exit fees. He has "no baggage." [God, those were great years!] I love Jeff Foxworthy's speil on being "single" - stay intoxicated nightly, get laid everyday - and his follow up - If during a party, your friends trash all your furniture - you're out maybe 15 bucks.
- - So the young cruiser can live on $1K/mo (although I bet half of that cost is in beer) quite nicely because he has "no baggage." Add a female crewmate and maybe a baby or two and all of a sudden "baggage" arrives in your life and the cost of living starts rapidly escalating. More food, more modifications to the boat to fit the female and/or the kids. Add maybe a dog. Medical insurance and/or cash for doctors and that $1K doubles. Then you start to age, as do the kids and wife, more health maintenance costs, and suddenly educational costs.
- - Those young folks with kids now have to drop out of cruising and return to land to get a job to pay for raising the kids. Those without kids can stay on the boat and cruise, but now annual recurring costs for boat repair and upgrading and clothes costs start to escalate. (No clothes is how those young cruisers ended up with all the kids). More interest in seeing the sites and cultures means more costs.
- - As the cruisers' ages further increase, mortality starts rearing its ugly head and now various insurance requirements start really adding up. It is in this late middle age, after the kids are gone, that the young cruisers who had to return to land can now rejoin their live on the water. But they bring with them "fixed costs" or "more baggage" in such things as investment management, significant taxes (I am retired and my US taxes are still $1.5K per month), medical costs, copays, Medicare premiums, Supplemental, Medicare Drug plans, med-evac insurance, etc. That adds huge amounts to the "baggage" - (for me and my wife about $300/month). Again a larger boat is needed especially after living on land and working your way up the "ladder" with cars, a comfortable home, and lots of convenience appliances, long time friends and relatives - the children how have their own children. All this new baggage bumps you up into the $3K/month arena.
- - Finally, old age - 60+ - and serious medical baggage develops and you had better have been paying all those years for the insurance policies/coverage. If not, the first serious medical "incident" will likely be your last one. I have several ex-pat friends who were "running naked" in the insurance coverage area. When a accident and or typical old age cancer occurred that the local clinics could not handle that was the end! Losing your life-long friend/mate/best buddy who is still "too young" because you cannot pay for medical care is a heavy trip.
- - So let's not say or even think that "everybody" can cruise the world for $1K or less just because you are young and carry no "baggage" . . . now. You will acquire significant "baggage" as your life proceeds and all of that takes more and more money. Oh! I forget the worst of it - that storage unit back home you are paying $200/month for that contains all the "stuff" that you cannot bear to part with even though you haven't seen or used any of it for the last decade.

[Viking Sailor]

osirissail, one word "BULL"!!!!!!

I'm 65 and can easily cruise on 1k/mo. What make you think that everyone has to follow the same path or cares about the same things you do? A persons life is what it is. If they are doing what makes them smile then they are very lucky indeed. Cruising makes me smile and the rest of the junk is meaningless.

[MarkJ]

Some discussions on here are not worth the effort.

This is one. Some people try to give good advice and thoughts and some just don't understand the English language. And never will.

[anjou]

Originally Posted by osirissail

-Add a female crewmate and maybe a baby or two and all of a sudden "baggage" arrives in your life and the cost of living starts rapidly escalating. More food, more modifications to the boat to fit the female and/or the kids. .

OI,

I take exception to your generalisation of 'females'

I hope your Mrs doesnt mind being called 'Baggage' coz i certainly do. I pull my weight and have never been a financial burden or drain on anyones resources since I was 16.

[anjou]

Originally Posted by steelfan

Marinas can be absurd in Italy - the highest price we saw was 300 euro a night for our boat. buildlso many of the so called marinas are badly protected against seas.
Hope this helps
Steelfan

The main reason why we are moving from Sardinia in the new year. Alan has lived aboard 12 months in Gib and the last 3 in Sardinia but its getting too expensive now and hes not the only one to find this.

We want to do the Greek islands next season while we live on the hook, and my contribution to this is building a watermaker so we are more independant and can save more money (and I can have more showers).

Then we spend next winter in Turkey where its still relitively cheap. I love cooking and eating good wholesome basic meals, not nouvelle cuisine, and I enjoy shopping for ingredients and fishing.

When I consider the constantly rising cost of living in the UK, this lifestyle is still better as the quality of life/costs are more rewarding.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by anjou

We want to do the Greek islands next season while we live on the hook, .

Well, watch out for Sea Life. We will be doing the Greek Isles (if all goes well). Thats me, Nicolle and all our baggage

We can give Alan a quick 'once over' and report back to the forum!


Mark

[anjou]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Well, watch out for Sea Life. We will be doing the Greek Isles (if all goes well). Thats me, Nicolle and all our baggage

We can give Alan a quick 'once over' and report back to the forum!


Mark

Get a wriggle on then, its a long way from Malaysia to the Med, and thats taking the Suez shortcut. Even longer if you take the Cape route.

Have you drunk all your baggage yet? That beer will never settle so best drunk sooner than later.

[mischief]

Well I think this thread is funny since Im getting some of the same type of reponses over on my thread. After just reading this entire thread it seems that (not all) for the most part those that spend a lot can not faathom how others could do it and be happy.

Others attest they have and it can be done and that it is about choices. The ones spending a lot try to convince themselves they are right.

My personal opinion is this is the same on land, my family live very inexpensively on land and still have luxuries like internet. We survive on way less then the poverty line and are saving rapidly for a yacht. Some of our friends spend more on one meal then we spend for a weeks groceries to feed all of us and we eat till we are full and eat very good tasty food.

I really think this is more of a western type thinking that there are all these expenses. Sure there will always be some but the truth is we can choose a lot of them. What is a must for someone is an option for another.

So why is it some feel there is only one way to do it? Just because someone can not see a family being happy on a small simple yacht they feel it can not be done. There are happy families in many countries living in places a lot smaller then a small yacht.

Im not trying to stir anything up but it would be nice if everyone just took a second and was totally honest with themselves. Fact it has been done, Fact it can be done again, Fact it is not for everyone, Fact it is for some.

Taking this back to the original post. I agree I think there should be a bit of leeway for newcomers dreams. Most will loose interest anyway but why try and squash someones dreams because it does not fit your style? Be hoenst post your experiences and your thought, just leave out the bits like "it cant be done, its too unsafe, you have to do this etc" Sound the warnings sure but ultimately it is up to the individual to make thier own decisions and reap the consequesnces positive or negative. I believe the forums she a place to gather the evidence in order to decide.

Thats only my opinion FWIW

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by mischief

just leave out the bits like "it cant be done, its too unsafe, you have to do this etc" Sound the warnings sure but ultimately it is up to the individual to make thier own decisions and reap the consequesnces positive or negative. I believe the forums she a place to gather the evidence in order to decide.

I can't quibble too much with your comments - especially on the living style.

But like anywhere this place ain't perfect - however most folks here genuinely don't want folks to bite off more they can chew rather than naysaying out of simple point scoring / dream squashing. and as you rightly say, everyone has different lifestlyles, ideas, dreams, needs........and bank balances

Easy enuf to acquire the knowledge to sail into trouble, not so easy to get the knowledge to prevent or get out of. I guess much the same in the world of Alpine climbing...............dangling off a rock from a piece of string admiring the view - how hard can that be? I am sure you have a few stories of folks in that area - and equally hard to convey knowledge in a few lines over the internet.

But I think you seem to have got the hang of this place

Although not meant as a direct comparison to yourself, a few searches on RONNIESIMPSON would be an example of why folk hestitate to get too gung ho in getting folks starting from a low knowledge / cash base to live their dreams........but doesn't mean that folks don''t want them to succeed - just not want to be responsible for someone (else!) ending up on a slow boat (freighter) to China

A couple of threads to get you started............

The usual hello - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ite-14065.html

The plan - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...low-19921.html

Yikes! - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ice-20095.html

[jm21]

A wife/husband/partner who brings nothing to the table would certainly add expenses (especially if they are very demanding), as would children. So would debts that weren't paid off (e.g. student loans) and storage space for 'stuff'. Those things are really personal choices for the most part as well though. A lot of people in the US have that sort of 'baggage' because it goes along with a lot of the cultural goals in the US, but not everyone. Health insurance is certainly an increasingly problematic area but not just for cruisers.

I think a lot of money issues have to do with perception. I was introduced to a guy who was "really good with money" (presumably because he had a lot of assets). I immediately noticed he drove an expensive new BMW. That just screams out "bad with money" to me to spend so much money on transportation that will sharply lose a huge portion of its value.

[anjou]

Originally Posted by jm21

I was introduced to a guy who was "really good with money" (presumably because he had a lot of assets). I immediately noticed he drove an expensive new BMW. That just screams out "bad with money" to me to spend so much money on transportation that will sharply lose a huge portion of its value.

A very good point. The recent economic boom has been partly driven by personal spending. People paid through the nose to buy houses and then to buy more junk to put in them. They bought more clothes, had expensive social lives, entertaining at home and about town, new cars and too many foreign holidays.
All this was done on borrowed money. Now they have to pay it back. They have lived beyond their means and are saddled with debt. They have had their fun and now have to pay for it, but of course, they dont see it like that. They are the envious types who now look at my debt and baggage free life, my enlightened way of thinking and now snipe and make remarks like 'Its alright for some'

If I go out to a local pub for a basic bar meal and soft drink, (im driving) its going to cost me @ £5.50 - 7.00.
For that money i can buy enough ingredients to cook a meal at home that will give me 4 portions that will provide the main meal for 4 days. I dont mind eating the same thing 4 days in a row. Its nutritious, fun and interesting to do and sustainable to my pocket.


Not everyone lives like this. Here is an analogy to show two ways of thinking on the same subject.

Several years ago, I told my boss I would be off in the afternoon to visit the dentist. He had a mouthful of black and rotten teeth and asked what the problem was. 'Nothing' I replied. 'Then why are you going?'

Preventative maintenence. He goes as a last resort and I go to prevent last resort.

[mischief]

Good post David.
Yep there is always two sides to every coin.

[sailorboy1]

I think I found this site during research on "how much does it cost" question and have read all posts like this (started looking into it 3 years before I had ever sailed). I only got into sailing to be able to travel. I find these threads rarely answer the cost question. I think maybe a lot of the answers that do get given get inflated due to the "who" is on this ste. Just that we are on-line with computers makes the answers given more expensive because we can afford a copmuter etc. and this is a sign of the life style we are following. I kind of have started going with the answer of "it costs whatever you can afford to spend". But wish I could get a better handle on the whole thing. Once numbers are given it would be great if whoever gave their number explained what they did while cruising on it! Some of the spreadsheets people provide helps, but again there always seems to be big jumps without a reason to base a judgement on. I have a 6 year plan that gets me to 55 and a spreadsheet that tells me how much I can spend total assuming I'm not going to go back to work. I vary the monthly spend between $1000-2000/mo during how crappy a day I've had. But I still have no idea of what type of cruising life I can do on say $1000/mo. Is this a anchor out, eat dog food, wear rags budget?

So my hope going forward is that people who provide real numbers to this question also provide enough info on what they are doing etc to allow us to truely understand what they are getting to do on that budget. Things like where they are crusiing, are you anchored, what do you do for entertainment (travel, sight see etc), what did you spend on boat maintenance (and whether you did it yourself), are you carrying insurance (boat and health) etc etc. Given that there are lots of people living on land for less than $500/mo (a fortune in some places) it alway gets hard to believe that you can not cruise for a lot less than most of the budgets that get posted (what's that average hotel worker in Mexico making to live on). I see cruising as travel to see things, not to party everyday, but that's my hope and isn't everyones.

[osirissail]

Viking Sailor sums up why a lot of sailors head out - freedom to do what you want to do and how you want to do it with few if any governments or boards, or whatever telling you how you must live or die.

Mischief sums it up in his last sentence (#53) >>>. . . but ultimately it is up to the individual to make thier own decisions and reap the consequesnces positive or negative. I believe the forums she a place to gather the evidence in order to decide.<<<

Anjou - "baggage" is not a derogatory word - it encompasses all the things you cannot leave behind because they are near and dear to you. Things you have collected over the years of your life that are worthwhile and you do not want to leave them behind. I am sure you will be carrying such things with you to the Med both physically and mentally. You have lived "x-many" years and I am sure you have acquired friends, maybe some health issues, and lots of "favorite things" that you want around you. If you develop a lasting relationship in your new adventure that will add more things to the "baggage" part of your life. It is the things that identify you and the obligations that go along with them.

How much you carry with you is totally a personal choice. Remember, you are the one packing your bags. Life at sea helps to free you from some of the mandatory baggage imposed by governments, etc. That is one of the beauties of cruising mentally and physically - the boat is only "so big" and will not hold all the "extra" things you could retain in a land-based home. So you pack your baggage with only what is near and dear to you and what is necessary to sustain your life as "you" want to live it.

David O J has probably the best one sentence ever written on why CF and other forums are really valuable: >>> Easy enuf to acquire the knowledge to sail into trouble, not so easy to get the knowledge to prevent or get out of. <<< Knowledge is a two edged sword. Sailing affords an opportunity to stand on the bow of your vessel waving your pirate's sword with glee. Just be careful you don't cut your own head off on the back stroke.

[Ex-Calif]

Hi Don - I think the answer is that there is no clear answer.

I am on a couple of expat forums. People considering an assignment overseas often ask - "What does it cost to live in Singapore."

That's the wrong question. My reply is always something like, "What kind of lifestyle do you want?"

If you want to live "local" and single you can do it for S$2,000 a month. However if you are Western with 4 kids and want -

Private education
4 b/r X 4,000 square feet
2 cars
eat out 3 times a week at Morton's type places
buy all western style/brand groceries
home leave
regional vacations
maid
etc. etc...

You need about US$17,000 per month.

So the question for boating is

What kind of boating lifestyle do you want?