The Boat Market - Financial Gurus?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t understand it, I’m not knocking them, but don’t understand why this is?

Different generation, just as our lives are different from our parents. Dau (23) has never known a time without the internet, that's quite scary isn't it.

Pete

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Now I’m not speaking to your kids, so don’t think I am., please.
My Wife used to teach at a title something school, which meant that the kids were poor, everyone qualified for a free lunch, and most lived in public housing etc.
Yet every one of them had the latest greatest IPhone, they all laughed at my Wife’s old small phone.

You know someone is homeless when you see them sitting outside of a grocery store etc that has an outside wall outlet and they are recharging their smart phone using the outlet.

I don’t understand it, I’m not knocking them, but don’t understand why this is?

I'm guessing in the 1940s there were some old fogies sitting around wondering why poor people's kids thought they deserved electricity, given that they themselves did without it as did their parents and their parents parents. Could have said the same thing about penicillin, old style phones, athletic shoes, still hear some people saying that about air conditioning in the south.....
When it comes to advancements in technology what is seen as a luxury to the last generation is seen as a basic aspect needed to interact with society in the next. While a kid doesn't need the latest generation of i-phone, you're damning them to a life of failure if you don't get them access to the same technology that the rest of us use to run our businesses and life...effectively making them unemployable and out of the loop on what's going on in the world. That's fine if you're 80, not so great if you're talking a 15 year old, but especially one who has had a rough start to life by accident of birth.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If negative interest rates come, they have to be paid for somehow, either gradually or all at once.
At least that is what logic dictates, however many think it can go on forever, they are right in that “we” are financially in a pace we have never been before, so the rules confuse me.

However what people want or think they want in a boat has changed, and that drives prices. I assume maybe that Social media has changed society greatly, it seems that social pressures drive consumption more than ever, or maybe it’s just that I’m older and notice it, everyone it seems has to have a $1,000 cell phone, it matters not if they make minimum wage or not, and they all have to drive an SUV, even if a sedan would be much more practicable for them.

You're just an old fart whos first car was a Studebaker that needed rings and bearings. Society has become buy what you can't afford. Looking at the credit card ads no payments till 2020. Oh. did we not mention the interest is accruing.

[barnakiel]

This will vary according to how rich your neighnbours are ,but here (Spain), in about an average marina, only 10% (sail-) boats ever sail.


- some 50% are never sailed and in decent shape (used as weekend cockpit queens),
- some 40% are sun eaten, weathered, perched things with mold eaten decks and canvas.


You will see boats like a Bava 370 listed locally at about 60k. Walk to that dock have a look - the boat is actually a negative value, given that shredding grp boats cannot be done anywhere locally.


As soon as marinas start kicking out old garbage to make space for new garbage, I see boat prices in the Med sliding down, vertically.


There will be also a 1000% rise in fire related accidents within easy SAR reach, resulting in complete write-offs ...


omg


b.

[Tetepare]

Many 70s and 80s boats held value because they were in relatively good shape and ergonomics didn’t change much until the last decade or so. Now they are past prime and neglected. Thus the low prices.

[Tillsbury]

Yes, the second-hand boat lasts so much longer, I guess.

Thirty or forty years ago there were two kinds of boats for those of us that couldn't afford new ones. Relatively new fibreglass boats (mostly pretty small), or older boats that were way too wooden and way too much work. Boats didn't appear to depreciate too much as long as they worked and didn't have the threat of the dreaded osmosis. But now all those boats are still around, along with the boats of the following thirty years. There are simply so many that the buyer is the one who makes the call.

And, of course, the inflation thing that was mentioned above makes a big difference, along with the inexplicable tendency nowadays for people to buy a boat with cheap credit. That encourages people into expensive newer boats (that you can get a loan on) compared with an older boat where you'll need cash for the purchase and cash for the refit.

And on top of that, catamarans are now a thing, whereas thirty or forty years ago they were strictly for the eccentrics.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Now I’m not speaking to your kids, so don’t think I am., please.
My Wife used to teach at a title something school, which meant that the kids were poor, everyone qualified for a free lunch, and most lived in public housing etc.
Yet every one of them had the latest greatest IPhone, they all laughed at my Wife’s old small phone.

You know someone is homeless when you see them sitting outside of a grocery store etc that has an outside wall outlet and they are recharging their smart phone using the outlet.

I don’t understand it, I’m not knocking them, but don’t understand why this is?

Obamaphone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPNL1QDQVTI

[OkiMike]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The sailboat boat market has changed in my lifetime. In my early life, it stayed pretty static. Nothing seemed to change. A boat acted as a store of value, but it did not protect you from inflation.

I can't speak for others, but I still think of them this way. But, as with most places to park your cash, you have to acknowledge the risk that future buyers may have different goals/interests.

Originally Posted by Chotu

Now, I see three of these boats on yacht world. One for 17,000, one for 29,000, and one for 80,000. Why such a spread in these prices?

Mate, there are a lot more boats on the market now and every year more enter the market while those already built undergo varying amounts of depreciation through neglect. It really doesn't take more than a few years for a boat to deteriorate rapidly (area dependent, of course).

Originally Posted by Chotu

Why did this change take place? Lack of interest in sailing? Lack of interest in used boats? Retiring baby boomers? And no one young can afford a boat? Unless it’s just live aboard? Maybe people prefer power boats now? Easier to run? What are some of the factors that have affected used boat prices?

I actually think that platforms like YouTube have increased the amount of interest in sailing and living aboard compared to the 90s and 00s. From all the sailing rags I read, that typically takes the form of lamenting the dwindling interest in racing, but why is no one optimistic that the desire to live aboard is on the increase? It feels almost as if the sailing community has interest in only seeing a certain TYPE of sailing and that's all they report on.

But yeah, the inability and disinterest of young people to afford expensive items like houses, cars, etc. isn't going to get better. If we could somehow increase the amount of available moorage across the US, I think we'd actually see a spike in live aboard owners, because it's one of the cheapest options available to buy a "home" and not sign away your life to mortgage payments, plus it fulfills the ever-increasing rugged individualist mentality of today's 20-somethings.

[nofacey]

1) fibreglass boats last almost forever
2) Baby boomers don’t
3) on top of which the world economy is simply tougher for the average guy.

So the average guy works harder to have a lower effective post retirement income than his Dad enjoyed....and it doesn’t include the same goodies (light airplanes, big boats, fancy cottages). Past that, greater supply, lesser demand = lower prices on good used boats.

[A la carte]

Might be off topic; if so, please forgive me.

I recall a past thread where a member suggested that owning a boat was like a consumable product. Plan to keep it and don't worry about the resale. That struck a chord with me; I'm past middle age, but I plan to own my boat until I can't safely sail her anymore. I keep her in good shape and she's a joyful part of my life. When I'm gone, I won't worry about the resale price. This concept might be considered a luxury to some but, since I've decided sailing will be part of my life, it makes sense for me.

[boatpoker]

It seems that quite a few of the younger generation have not bought homes or boats. I suspect they are waiting for you old folks to kick the bucket and leave them a pile then they'll go on a spending spree. I've seen quite a few examples of this.

[acem]

The situation is related to the introduction of Fiberglass sailboats that seem to live forever.

Before fiberglass sailboats you had wooden or steel sailboats that self destructed after a couple decades (without expensive maintenance). Fiberglass does not rot like wood or rust like steel and is much cheaper to manufacture in production plants.

Originally sailboats were the realm of the wealthy and a status symbol. After the introduction of production fiberglass sailboats, middle income families could enjoy sailing. Popularity grew and companies were producing many sailboats in the 60s and 70s.

Then the recession of the 80s hit and caused the first correction in the sailboat market (many companies went out then). Used boats still sold for good prices but the market was slowing. I started looking at sailboats in the late 80s but could not afford one.

During the great recession of 2008 many markets were shaken. Many luxury items were severly hurt and credit became more difficult to obtain. Additionally the boats made in the 70s and 80 were getting old and needed expensive updates.

All this added together to make old boats much less valuable. The simple fact is there are more old small and mid sized boats than are wanted.

For example I bought a good Catalina 27 a few years ago for a reasonable cost. Last year it was demasted in a tornado (the mast is bent). I have it home on a trailer but am unsure if I should install a replacement mast or part it out. It is worth more as parts than as a sailboat!

If old sailboats had not become cheap I may never have bought one.

Thx-Ace

[GTom]

Originally Posted by acem

The situation is related to the introduction of Fiberglass sailboats that seem to live forever.

Before fiberglass sailboats you had wooden or steel sailboats that self destructed after a couple decades (without expensive maintenance). Fiberglass does not rot like wood or rust like steel and is much cheaper to manufacture in production plants.

Originally sailboats were the realm of the wealthy and a status symbol. After the introduction of production fiberglass sailboats, middle income families could enjoy sailing. Popularity grew and companies were producing many sailboats in the 60s and 70s.

Then the recession of the 80s hit and caused the first correction in the sailboat market (many companies went out then). Used boats still sold for good prices but the market was slowing. I started looking at sailboats in the late 80s but could not afford one.

During the great recession of 2008 many markets were shaken. Many luxury items were severly hurt and credit became more difficult to obtain. Additionally the boats made in the 70s and 80 were getting old and needed expensive updates.

All this added together to make old boats much less valuable. The simple fact is there are more old small and mid sized boats than are wanted.

For example I bought a good Catalina 27 a few years ago for a reasonable cost. Last year it was demasted in a tornado (the mast is bent). I have it home on a trailer but am unsure if I should install a replacement mast or part it out. It is worth more as parts than as a sailboat!

If old sailboats had not become cheap I may never have bought one.

Thx-Ace

Fully agreed. And the new ones are coming from mass production by the thousand every year, going to charterers then end up on the second hand market after 5 years. Bits need replacing but the biggest chunk, the hull, deck, mast, furniture runs another 100years.

One problem with that: marinas and moorings are becoming more and more scarce, especially the cheaper ones.