Seller refuses haul out

[Phantom Jim]

We may be missing the concept that selling/buying any boat outside a contracted brokered situation is an unregulated situation.

With no contract or regulation, the seller gets to sell his boat under any terms he chooses. The potential buyer can certainly attempt to negotiate different terms, but the seller controls the terms he will accept. Likewise, the buyer controls the terms he will accept, ultimately to buy or not.

It may be folly to want something so much that one loses a sense of proportion.

[Moontide]

Not buying his 8 hour excuse.



If he is willing to do a sea trial coordinate it so you can go straight to the yard if you are happy with the sea trial. They should be able to haul and do the out of the water part of the survey in less than an hour. Surveyor could then complete the rest of the survey back in the slip.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Phantom Jim

We may be missing the concept that selling/buying any boat outside a contracted brokered situation is an unregulated situation.

With no contract or regulation, the seller gets to sell his boat under any terms he chooses. The potential buyer can certainly attempt to negotiate different terms, but the seller controls the terms he will accept. Likewise, the buyer controls the terms he will accept, ultimately to buy or not.

It may be folly to want something so much that one loses a sense of proportion.

First off your understanding of the responsibilities of a broker certainly aren't in line with market reality at least in the U.S. A broker puts up a listing and may or may not be there to show you the boat, that's pretty much it. The definitely do not guarantee anything regarding the condition of the boat, heck many have never even seen some of the boats they're listing! A brokered transaction only means there's a third party involved, it says absolutely nothing to the integrity of the seller or the chances that a buyer gets fleeced. And while some states require a broker to get a license (and many do not), a brokered transaction is in no way regulated by any law or agency, so effectively there's absolutely no difference between a brokered and nonbrokered sale from a consumer protection perspective.

So yes, every seller can sell on any terms they wish. This seller is insisting on terms that no reasonable seller with a boat that had no known issues would insist on. They control the terms, sure, but so what? That in no way changes the very good advice given by pretty much everyone here to leave this seller with their terms and their boat.

[Phantom Jim]

Redneckrob: the broker, at least in Texas, does a lot more than just list the boat. He manages the legal contract between the seller and buyer and is in charge of the movement of monies from the buyer to the seller. The broker gets paid a portion of the sale price to do these activities.

The seller does not get the money until the buyer is satisfied that he is getting what he is willing to pay for.

[Cadence]

See if the seller will compromise. If you buy the boat the haul out is on him. If you don't it is on you.
Although, from what you have said, he is not interested in selling or there is a problem and he is waiting for a chump to come along..

[Pete7]

The OP hasn't been back to the forum for a month.

Hopefully he didn't part with hard earned money without the opportunity to see and survey the boat properly out of the water.

Pete

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by Phantom Jim

.....the broker, at least in Texas, does a lot more than just list the boat. He manages the legal contract between the seller and buyer and is in charge of the movement of monies from the buyer to the seller. The broker gets paid a portion of the sale price to do these activities. The seller does not get the money until the buyer is satisfied that he is getting what he is willing to pay for.

That is how is is also done in California based on my experience buying or selling 8 sailboat or motorboats. Broker also coordinates the sea trail, survey, assists in getting insurance, boat loans, title transfer, bottom cleaning, washing boat before a showing and inspecting the boat prior to sale so ensure it shows well.

[Shrew]

If you are willing to pay a captain, and he will not allow anyone to operate the boat, YET doesn't want to 'waste his time', then there are only three options left:

1) Offer to pay the owner the captains fees to operate his boat to the closest haul-out (and back) for an out-of-the-water hull inspection (IMHO you can't sound a hull properly underwater)

OR

2) Walk away

OR

3) Purchase the boat and take your chances.

Only a fool would choose option #3.

[MarkSF]

There are two kinds of these boats.

Countless ones that are passed around as liveaboards, for $5 to $10K, and sort of run but aren't really expected to go anywhere, and really shouldn't, given their condition.

Then there are ones that could actually be used as a vessel.

Which one do you want? For the former, I would skip the survey too, and have a good look around. For the latter, no way would I do it without a very careful survey, including out of the water, and engine surveys.

The price is very optimistic for the former.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Phantom Jim

Redneckrob: the broker, at least in Texas, does a lot more than just list the boat. He manages the legal contract between the seller and buyer and is in charge of the movement of monies from the buyer to the seller. The broker gets paid a portion of the sale price to do these activities.

The seller does not get the money until the buyer is satisfied that he is getting what he is willing to pay for.

First off I'm missing the part where that is a regulated exchange. Stock market transactions are regulated, health insurance is regulated, brokered boat transactions are in no way "regulated" by anyone in any way.

I would also point out that your understanding of escrow is, shall we say unique? An escrow agent, no matter if its a broker or someone else, is obligated per any contract I've ever seen to disburse funds when the product is delivered. There is absolutely nothing to indicate they are legally allowed to hold funds "until the buyer is satisfied that he is getting what he is willing to pay for.", again if you have a contract that shows otherwise I'd love to see it.

Bottom line is beyond dispute, if a seller is hiding something wrong with the bottom that would be seen with a haul out, then having a broker doesn't change anything. They assume no liability, they provide no guarantees, there is no "regulation" of the transaction, they don't deliver you the boat and then hold the money from the seller for some indeterminate amount of time and give it back to you if there's a defect you didn't find in your prebuy inspection. That doesn't happen in Texas or anywhere in the U.S.

And don't forget, if the broker you're talking about is representing the seller, their fiduciary duty is to the seller and they're getting paid by the seller when the boat sells. There are certainly good brokers. They will do some due diligence and refuse to accept what in their experience appear to be dodgey boats as listings, but even they are limited by their time and expertise and even the best broker couldn't know about an underwater defect without a haul out or guarantee to you as the buyer that no such defect existed. And lets face it, the majority of brokers aren't going to do much beyond cursory due diligence on a listing, that's just reality.

[sail sfbay]

Since it has been over 4 weeks from the OP guess the sale did not go through unless he had a long purchase agreement duration vs. 3 weeks that I have always had. My last sailboat sold in 4½ days through my broker and that included sea trial, survey and marine title transfer. Broker coordinated everything including sea trial captain and driving the boat to the boatyard for a haul-out survey.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Pete435231

Hi All,

I’ve been intetested in purchasing a boat for some time now and have done alot of research on which ones I want and will best fit my needs.

I thought i finally found the perfect boat not too far away from me in CA. The boat is really clean and looks well taken care of (pictures and walk around) and is the very model I wanted.

The seller agreed to my offer ~25k for 33’ motor yacht and contingencies except he is unwilling to allow a hual out. I offered to hire an insured captain if the listing broker was inable to take it to place to haul it out but seller says he wants to be the only one driving the boat but he doesnt want to take 8 hours of his day to do it - although he has offered to do a sea trial with me.

I asked when was last time a hual out survey was done on the boat and listing broker said that when seller originally purchased the boat a few years ago he did inspection himself underwater (as a diver) but didnt haul it out. So I offered to hire a diver but havent heard back.

I have a feeling i shouldnt just walk away from this boat I should run but its the exact boat im looking for and looks really clean and well taken care of.

Question to forum members: why would someone refuse a hual out? Is this a common thing that happens during sale procesd? Is it likely there is damage underneath and he doesnt want a hual out because if its found and i walk away from sale he would have to disclose it to future parties - or is his excuse of not wanting to take the time to do a hual out on a 25k AS-IS boat legitimate?

Look forward to feedback.

Pete in Los Angeles

You pay for the houl out?

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Pete435231

Hi All,

I’ve been intetested in purchasing a boat for some time now and have done alot of research on which ones I want and will best fit my needs.

I thought i finally found the perfect boat not too far away from me in CA. The boat is really clean and looks well taken care of (pictures and walk around) and is the very model I wanted.

The seller agreed to my offer ~25k for 33’ motor yacht and contingencies except he is unwilling to allow a hual out. I offered to hire an insured captain if the listing broker was inable to take it to place to haul it out but seller says he wants to be the only one driving the boat but he doesnt want to take 8 hours of his day to do it - although he has offered to do a sea trial with me.

I asked when was last time a hual out survey was done on the boat and listing broker said that when seller originally purchased the boat a few years ago he did inspection himself underwater (as a diver) but didnt haul it out. So I offered to hire a diver but havent heard back.

I have a feeling i shouldnt just walk away from this boat I should run but its the exact boat im looking for and looks really clean and well taken care of.

Question to forum members: why would someone refuse a hual out? Is this a common thing that happens during sale procesd? Is it likely there is damage underneath and he doesnt want a hual out because if its found and i walk away from sale he would have to disclose it to future parties - or is his excuse of not wanting to take the time to do a hual out on a 25k AS-IS boat legitimate?

Look forward to feedback.

Pete in Los Angeles

Just get a diver to inspect the under water body.