Sails and Rigging Made in China

[S/V Alchemy]

Were I to buy replacement sails for a "stock" boat, like a Catalina 30 or a Hunter 33, for the purposes of daysailing/farting around, I might be persuaded to go offshore. But like some people, I have a one-off custom design that needs to be measured and I need to convey construction elements like reinforcement at the corners, a deep first reef, where the chafe patches go, and all the other stuff that gives you many years of use even in tropical passagemaking.

I've had to learn more than I ever thought about sails just to describe what I want to my sailmaker (Triton Sails, Toronto). Frankly, not everyone needs to do that. A main for a J/105 is a known object, and the type of fabric determines the price point more than the construction details.

Get something weird, overbuilt or unusually sized in Dacron, however, and you might need several "fittings" directly on the boat. That implies someone willing to show up and to know enough to see potential issues in their heads, which comes from years of doing it.

So there is no one answer. Sometimes a Chinese sail is going to save money and do well. Sometimes you need to hump sailbags to and from the loft.

[DeborahLee]

Had head sail and main made in China in 2002. Still in use have had some repair work but feel it is more wear and not quality. Had to do all the measuring myself and was a nervous wreck until they were on. They will drive you nuts with questions after you place the order. Every little detail. Remember you get what you order exactly, no help. I didn't know that the roller furling cord was in size 1,2 or 3 and measured it as 1/4". Guess what I had to change. They didn't say that measurment didn't seem right they just made it. Over all I'd buy them again. Most of the sail lofts around my home port didn't seem interested in my order at that time only high priced racing rags and none of them seemed to be making them in their loft.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by DeborahLee

Had head sail and main made in China in 2002. Still in use have had some repair work but feel it is more wear and not quality. Had to do all the measuring myself and was a nervous wreck until they were on. They will drive you nuts with questions after you place the order. Every little detail. Remember you get what you order exactly, no help. I didn't know that the roller furling cord was in size 1,2 or 3 and measured it as 1/4". Guess what I had to change. They didn't say that measurment didn't seem right they just made it. Over all I'd buy them again. Most of the sail lofts around my home port didn't seem interested in my order at that time only high priced racing rags and none of them seemed to be making them in their loft.

Deborah,

I wish you had contacted us. We have measurement forms and videos that greatly simplify the process and insure you get the proper sail. When you deal direct with an overseas loft that sells to end users, you are often in contact with people who have never stepped foot on a boat and would not know a Pearson Triton from a Trintella 53.

[smurphny]

Originally Posted by perchance

Is this not the stuff revolutions are made of?

Yes, great disparity of wealth has been a factor in most revolutions, including the one here in 1776.

[islandplanet]

The Chinese economy and the burgeoning middle class are doing quite well and improving continuously. People spouting rhetoric about "slave labor" are simply clueless. Economic growth has led to a higher standard of living and as mentioned previously, GM sells more cars in China than they do in US.

[smurphny]

Took about 1 minute to find this. Chinese labor abuse is well documented and has been the subject of much very public criticism. The report below is one of the kinder ones I've seen. These factory owners, many assembling things for well known U.S. corporations like Wal Mart and Apple, if not slave owners are damned close to it.

Survey of Chinese Workers' Working Conditions in 2010

[islandplanet]

Some major differences between a state of the art sail loft run by westerners and the ones that aren't following the rules. I only know about conditions at the loft.

The worst abusers are the HK and Taiwanese that set up shop in China...To wit - "The majority of the surveyed factories are Hong Kong or Taiwanese invested enterprises that manufacture for export markets."

All this aside, you have to keep in mind they selected a relatively small sample (only 46) and these were not selected randomly. While I agree with the organizations agenda to eliminate labor abuses, you can't infer that all operations are doing this. Further, you can't argue with the statistics documenting the economic growth and the increase of the size of the middle class.

[sailorboy1]

Well overall reading 4 pages it doesn't sound like there is a big problem with overseas sails! While there were a couple of "problems" posted I have read just as many about local "named" shops in different threads.

Far as the quality thing: I can rememeber when people were saying the same about Made in Japan.

Far as outsourcing: everyone votes with their pocketbook(both quality and price because they normally go together.

[smurphny]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Further, you can't argue with the statistics documenting the economic growth and the increase of the size of the middle class.

No argument there. Hard working people deserve a better life. The economic growth of countries in Asia and elsewhere is certainly pulling millions out of poverty which is a positive thing but they are experiencing the same abuses that happened right here in the USA during the industrial revolution. All those abandoned brick fabric mills along rivers in the Northeast, the abandoned canning factories in Alaska, the remnants of the Whale oil business where the rich now congregate on vacation (ex.Nantucket and MV), black lung in coal country (still going on) attest to our very own labor abuses. Keeping these predictable things in the news and on message boards may put pressure on people to shorten the length of this period as new countries go through it. So, questioning the source of things we buy and greater awareness is always a good idea.

[sneuman]

I would second those who have mentioned Rolly Tasker in Thailand as a quality sailmaker. For those who think they're getting an American sail simply because of the logo near the tack, don't believe it. A lot (probably most) are made by Tasker, Lee, etc. and then rebranded -- at 2x or 3x the price.

[Moufflon]

Hi Mike & anyone who can offer advice

I am in Ao Po Phuket, with my 40' Wood 1981 just found a mast to replace the one we lost overboard, cleaning up removing fittings to paint as anodizing is badly marked... My question is Rigging..need wire, yes, but how to do the end's in Phuket.
Back on subject. Chinese sails, as part of the deal I got a Chinese mainsail with the mast, its well worn, on checking stitching is sound, I will be using it, when, I get my stick up.


RGS///Peter

[svrevelations]

Originally Posted by smurphny

No argument there. Hard working people deserve a better life. The economic growth of countries in Asia and elsewhere is certainly pulling millions out of poverty which is a positive thing but they are experiencing the same abuses that happened right here in the USA during the industrial revolution. All those abandoned brick fabric mills along rivers in the Northeast, the abandoned canning factories in Alaska, the remnants of the Whale oil business where the rich now congregate on vacation (ex.Nantucket and MV), black lung in coal country (still going on) attest to our very own labor abuses. Keeping these predictable things in the news and on message boards may put pressure on people to shorten the length of this period as new countries go through it. So, questioning the source of things we buy and greater awareness is always a good idea.

Hi Smurf
I read most of your posts in this thread. Have you ever been to China? If you have, you then need to remove your shades as some of the things you say are quite out of touch with reality. There are many more factors contributing to the highly competitive Chinese and the now VERY uncompetitive USA prices.

Some other things to also consider;
1. The average Chinese simply works harder and is far more competitive. You might not like to hear this, but it is true.
2. Their work, life and business ethos is very different from the USA - indeed, the USA can learn many lessons from these people.
3. Many Americans are simply lazy, fat cats and see no need to be highly competitive or to work hard.
4. It's overdue for the USA, companies, individuals to cut overheads - if not, the situation will only get worse.
5. The constant "sweat shop" accusations hardly holds any water as a whole.
6. The USA is spending BILLIONS of $ on wasteful wars and interfering in other countries, resulting in high taxes - high wages - higher company overheads - higher selling prices. In fact, it is so bad, you are spending yourself bankcrupt!
7. Similar to the rest of the world, the USA have to compete and this is long overdue. The only problem is that the USA does not seem to realise this!?


All of this probably came about because the USA developed at a faster rate during the past 70 years than what other countries was able to develop. My humble opinion is that the USA has painted themselves into a corner with all their twisted democracy, human rights, war mongering, instant millionaire culture, fat cat, spending spree's, unproductivity, laziness, self glorifying, etc. It will be very difficult for them to step away from these issues. Unless they do, they will simply dimish as a world power - like so many cultures, societies and countires throughout history.

Look at the message - don't kill the messenger.

[BlueWaterSail]

Originally Posted by MooseMoney

All of this probably came about because the USA developed at a faster rate during the past 70 years than what other countries was able to develop. My humble opinion is that the USA has painted themselves into a corner with all their twisted democracy, human rights, war mongering, instant millionaire culture, fat cat, spending spree's, unproductivity, laziness, self glorifying, etc. It will be very difficult for them to step away from these issues. Unless they do, they will simply dimish as a world power - like so many cultures, societies and countires throughout history.

Look at the message - don't kill the messenger.

Well, unfortunately the human condition compels the opressed, when confronted with an opressor, to pick up the phone and call for help. As even a superficial review would show, among the global community only the USA bothers to consistently pick up the phone and respond to the message. The messenger gets asylum priviliges and the only morally questionable USA export to the grateful opressed is obesity - but then again, the response becomes an issue of personal choice.

Happy 4th, BWS

[pillum]

@ Smurph

"Hi Smurf
I read most of your posts in this thread. Have you ever been to China? If you have, you then need to remove your shades as some of the things you say are quite out of touch with reality. There are many more factors contributing to the highly competitive Chinese and the now VERY uncompetitive USA prices."

I've got to agree with MooseMoney here. You're talking like someone who's only experience of China has been through liberal press. They do well here because of their work ethic, their education, and their enjoyment of their work. I have a bunch of Chinese working for me here from all over China, and not one of them feels exploited, the reverse rather. Great workers producing great work that completes on the same playing field as every other non-subsidized nation. I am having a main made here right now, at half the price of the equivalent US one, here's the kicker... The US supplied one was going to be made in China too.

[svrevelations]

Originally Posted by BlueWaterSail

Well, unfortunately the human condition compels the opressed, when confronted with an opressor, to pick up the phone and call for help. As even a superficial review would show, among the global community only the USA bothers to consistently pick up the phone and respond to the message. The messenger gets asylum priviliges and the only morally questionable USA export to the grateful opressed is obesity - but then again, the response becomes an issue of personal choice.

Happy 4th, BWS

It kinda sounds noble that the oppressed can pick up a telephone, call for help and that the US then responds in kind generosity. It creates a kinda "feel good" feeling, yeah?

Unfortunately, this is not the whole picture. Indeed, the true picture is rather tragic how the US selectively claims this noble position for itself and through their war mongering create havoc and tremendous upheavel for millions of people. Stop being so indoctrinated or brainwashed and see the damage the world over.