Post survey & rejection: charges!!

[SailingHarmonie]

As a boat buyer, I would normally expect to cover ALL the costs of a survey and seatrial--completed sale or not. I have never been charged for the costs to "prep" the boat for the seatrial. That seems a bit dicey from a broker who stands to make a good bit of change from a successful sale.

That is certainly the way boat sales I have been involved with have gone, and the way the contracts have been written. If there were costs that the broker or seller chose to waive in the event of a successful sale, that would be nice, but not expected.

If I was smart, I'd ask to see those costs up front, and pay them before dropping out of the deal.

In this case, (assuming the data presented are a full and fair representation of the facts) the broker is being a vindictive dick.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by HeywoodJ

Two agreements were signed; one for the purchase of the vessel, and one for the survey.
As noted, not seeing the agreements we can't make specific comment, but nearly universally the survey agreements I have signed say the survey document belongs to the surveyor and is provided only to the paying client, and that client is not allowed to distribute the document, that capability resides with the surveyor.
If that's the case the agreements would be in conflict. Need to look at the whole picture.
If the agent didn't tell you about cost of something on their side related to the survey then tell them to go pound sand.

Yeahhhh, I had a surveyor once tell me something similar . . . . . Not sure how he would enforced it as I let him know his services were no longer needed, and I retained another surveyor. People can put whatever requirements they want on a transaction, but you don't have to agree with the . . .

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

Yeahhhh, I had a surveyor once tell me something similar . . . . . Not sure how he would enforced it as I let him know his services were no longer needed, and I retained another surveyor. People can put whatever requirements they want on a transaction, but you don't have to agree with the . . .

I've done thousands of surveys and know hundreds (yes hundreds) of surveyors I've met on the job and through courses and conventions over 30 years.

I've never met one who disagreed with ... The survey belongs to the person who paid for it to do with it as they wish.

[fstbttms]

An unscrupulous used car salesma... I mean, yacht broker?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

An unscrupulous used car salesma... I mean, yacht broker?

Yup ! You want to hire the surveyor the broker tells you is no good

[SailingHarmonie]

Maybe I am being stupid here, but the if I paraphrase the contract language at issue here:

If you want to back out of the deal because of a bad survey, you have to share the survey results.

This seems a VERY reasonable clause, and one I'd be happy to comply with as a boat buyer. I mean why not??? I KNOW I "own" the survey, and the surveyor should never give out the survey without my permission. That is 100% true. BUT>>>>

Backing out of a deal at the last minute is a BIG DEAL. Why should I expect the seller to just take my word that the survey was so bad I can cancel the deal unilaterally within terms of the contract??? It would NEVER occur to me to not show the survey to the seller (or the broker). If for no other reason that it would just be part of the negotiation of the issues that showed up.

How, exactly, are you going to negotiate a price reduction based on the survey if you don't show the survey to the seller and his broker????

I can here the conversation now:

Buyer: "Take money off your price, the survey is bad."
Seller: "What in the survey is bad?"
Buyer: "It's my survey you can't see it. Give me money."

COME ON PEOPLE. Get real and get off your high horses. Yes, you DO own the survey. Yes you have to share it.

[LordoftheReach]

When I put a deposit down on a boat I liked I read the agreement very carefully and I could back out for any reason. Turns out the boat needed new sails among some other major items so me and my surveyor let the broker know.

The broker also thought my surveyor was being too picky during his inspection.

[Fore and Aft]

Sailing Harmonie your dreaming. You show the seller the pages with all the issues and that's it. That makes the survey worthless to the seller and then he cannot reuse it. The other day I did a survey that cost my client $2000. The seller had a quiet word with me about getting a free copy so he can show other buyers. That's not happening unless my client passes on his copy. Some sellers I have met seem to think that a pre-purchase survey is an opportunity to get a free survey. That's fine but work it out with the buyer. It all gets a bit messy when the seller won't drop his price despite all the faults found and then he wants a copy of the full survey for free. Surveys are not cheap so why should the buyer share their survey with a recalcitrant seller?
Cheers

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by HeywoodJ

Two agreements were signed; one for the purchase of the vessel, and one for the survey.

As noted, not seeing the agreements we can't make specific comment, but nearly universally the survey agreements I have signed say the survey document belongs to the surveyor and is provided only to the paying client, and that client is not allowed to distribute the document, that capability resides with the surveyor.

If that's the case the agreements would be in conflict. Need to look at the whole picture.

That's a good point. Didn't realise this conflict as I didn't read the fine print of the survey agreement (was a very reputable surveyor and I didn't expect issues).

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

In this case, (assuming the data presented are a full and fair representation of the facts) the broker is being a vindictive dick.

That's how we feel about it. They already got an excellent survey for free. Wanting to charge us more on top is just silly.

I wouldn't mind paying for diesel but storage of sails? Eh?

[svtickles]

Language of the contract

//
SURVEY

The Buyer may, at his own cost, haul or place ashore or afloat and/or open up the Vessel and its machinery for any Survey which shall be completed before the date set out at paragraph **, time being of the essence. Unless agreed otherwise the buyer shall, at his own expense, reinstate the vessel to the condition and position in which he found it.
In the event that the Survey requires more than superficial non-destructive dismantling and limited removal of antifouling, the written consent of the Seller must be obtained before such work commences.

If as a result of the Survey:

a. the Buyer for any reason whatsoever and in his sole discretion considers the Vessel to be defective and therefore does not wish to proceed with the purchase, the Buyer shall give written notice of his rejection of the Vessel to the Broker within seven (7) days of completion of the Survey or the Trial, whichever is the later; such notice to be accompanied by an entire copy of the Buyer’s surveyor’s report(s); OR

b. any defect(s) are found in the Vessel (other than those previously disclosed in writing prior to the date of this Agreement), then the Buyer shall give written notice to the Broker within seven (7) days of completion of the Survey requesting the Seller to either: (i) make good such defect(s); or (ii) make an appropriate reduction in the Purchase Price to rectify such defect(s). Such notice is to be accompanied by an entire copy of the Buyer’s surveyor’s report(s) stating that such defect(s) affect(s) the operational integrity of the Vessel or her machinery or her systems and/or render(s) the Vessel unseaworthy. In the event that a valid notice under this paragraph ** has been received by the Broker and, within seven (7) days of receipt of such notice by the Broker, the Seller has not agreed in writing to rectify such defect(s) and/or the Parties have not agreed in writing the period within which the remedial works are to be completed and/or the
amount of the reduction to the Purchase Price, then the Agreement is deemed cancelled in accordance with the provisions in paragraph ** below.

Provided valid notice of rejection is received by the Broker, any outstanding charges resulting from the Survey and Trial (if any) shall be paid from the Deposit and the balance of the Deposit shall be returned to the Buyer promptly and the Agreement shall thereby be deemed cancelled, and the parties shall have no further rights and obligations to one another.

//

Should the charges not have an invoice?

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by svtickles

Language of the contract

//
SURVEY

The Buyer may, at his own cost....[blah, blah, blah].....

Should the charges not have an invoice?

I'm sorry, but I think that some tough love is needed here.

First, it seems that you're seeking legal advice on a boating forum. Don't do that. (If your were getting a divorce and you were fighting with your spouse over your flat screen tv, you wouldn't go to the Samsung Forum for advice).

Second, it doesn't matter what everyone else's contract said when they bought their boat. What matters is what did your contract say? If you don't understand what your contract means, see "First" above. (i.e. Seek legal advice, not boating advice.)

Third, it doesn't matter if your contract terms are unreasonable. We are all free to enter into an unreasonable contract. And we are bound by its unreasonable terms unless an applicable law specifically prohibits those terms, or unless the contract was induced by fraud or some other illegal behavior. What constitutes fraud or illegal behavior is a legal question, not a boating question.

Lastly, I'm actually not saying that you shouldn't have posted your story here. It is very useful to all of us as a cautionary tale. So I for one am glad you did so. Thank you for that.

I'm just saying don't plan on going back to the boat broker and saying: "I took a poll on Cruisers & Sailing Forums and the vast majority of posters said you were ripping me off, and your contract is unreasonable, and it would never stand up in court, so go pound sand".

But honestly, thanks again for posting about your experience. We all need to be reminded about unscrupulous sellers and sellers brokers out there. And we all need to be reminded to read documents carefully before we sign them. Because not doing so can be an expensive lesson.

Bob

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

First, it seems that you're seeking legal advice on a boating forum.

No, just sharing my experience. People asked about the actual wording, so I posted it.

My wife would love to sue the agent/seller for 250, but I've moved on.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

If you want to back out of the deal because of a bad survey, you have to share the survey results.

That is not my experience with how purchase contracts are written, with any of the several completed transactions and several offers that did not result in a completed transaction, that I have had over the last few years.


Ordinarily the way the standard contracts, that are written and promoted by national broker's associations, is that the buyer can back out for any reason until they confirm in writing that they are satisfied with the survey and sea trial and are prepared to move forward with the transaction.

How, exactly, are you going to negotiate a price reduction based on the survey if you don't show the survey to the seller and his broker????

I can here the conversation now:

Buyer: "Take money off your price, the survey is bad."
Seller: "What in the survey is bad?"
Buyer: "It's my survey you can't see it. Give me money."

The way that I did it went something like this:


Buyer: "The survey is OK but the water pressure pump is shot and these other three minor items have to be fixed in order for the boat to be insurable. How do you want to proceed?"


Seller: "I'll take $1000 off the price and give you and your contractors access to the boat to get them fixed before closing so you can get insurance."


Now, I was present, and the broker was present, while the survey was conducted, which is typical. So even though the seller never actually saw the printed and signed survey itself their broker had the opportunity to see this stuff firsthand while the survey was being performed.


This ended up leaving me on the hook for around $600 of parts and a day of my own labor -- had the deal fallen through I would not get any of that back. Frankly that's not serious money. I'd spent more than that on travel to see the boat and be there for the survey.


The key point here is that the survey isn't what's defective -- the boat's defective. The owner and his broker should, in general, be able to see and evaluate the problems found in the survey for themselves. An astute seller should already know what kind of shape the boat's in because they know the maintenance history. If there are serious problems that are a surprise to the seller, well, it's hard for everyone involved, but the seller can still go look at the boat and see the problem for themselves rather than relying on the buyer's surveyor.

[BlueH2Obound]

To the OP,

• If you signed the contract with the wording in post # 26, you're stuck with it, whether you read the contract or not.
• Personally, I would never sign a contract like that. No way, no where.
• If there are issues brought up by the surveyor that are significant, and I wish to negotiate a reduction in price, I would provide the seller with a copy of the relevant (discrepancies) portion of the survey, but NOT the entire survey.
• If he wishes to have a copy of the survey if we do NOT purchase the boat, I'd be happy to sell it to him for say half the price I paid the surveyor.
• If I PURCHASE the boat, once the deal is made in full, if the seller wishes to have a copy of the survey, for whatever reason, I'd probably give him a copy free of charge.

That's just me, YMMV