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Old 11-03-2021, 19:54   #1
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Ontario Insurance Catch-22

I'm stuck in an insurance Catch-22 here in Ontario, and I'm wondering if anyone knows a way out.

This winter, I bought a 1973 C&C 30 that has been stored in a warehouse since the passing of its PO. I'm in Ontario. I made arrangements that at the end of March, I would have the boat and cradle trucked to a (Sarnia) marina, where it would be on the hard for April while I updated its electrical, changed seacocks, got its engine running, etc. Toward the end of April, I would have a surveyor go over it, then I'd fix any remaining safety problems, insure it, and launch it.

However.... Two weeks ago, the marina informed me that the boat needs insurance just to be on the hard at the marina. The catch-22 is that the boat needs to be outside to be worked on (it can't be worked on inside the warehouse beyond electrical). I have subsequently called several insurance companies recommended by marinas and my surveyor seeking insurance -- not a full policy, just liability enough to work on it on the hard. I'll get a full policy when the work is done, before the boat ever touches water.

But none of the insurance companies will give me a policy. They say the boat is too old for a policy without a full passed survey. Hence the catch-22: can't get it into a marina to work on it to pass a survey without insurance, which requires a passed survey. I was advised by one company to talk with my present tenant insurer to get the boat covered by my tenant insurance temporarily, but my company gave the same answer: needs a survey first, due to its age. (My brother, who is partnering with me, got the same answer from his house insurance company.)

I'm still knocking on insurance company doors based on recommendations from marinas/surveyors, but I've received five 'no can do' answers so far. Unless I find a way to insure this boat temporarily, I'm going to have to rent some secure outdoor location that's not a marina and that can provide electricity and water, have the boat trucked there, and then work on it until it can pass survey, then pay a second trucking fee to have it brought to a marina. That's wasted effort, time, and $$$.

Anybody know another option?
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Old 11-03-2021, 20:07   #2
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

Its a low cost policy, so it might be hard to get any broker or underwriter to be very flexible. You might try getting a Port- risk only policy through a broker. This does not cover the boat if it leaves the port but can be more flexible on on the hardstand terms.
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Old 12-03-2021, 15:22   #3
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

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You might try getting a Port- risk only policy through a broker.
Good tip! I called up a maritime broker today and chatted out this approach, but no dice. Thanks anyway.
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Old 12-03-2021, 15:30   #4
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

I understand you only want liability, but a full comprehensive policy in Ontario is not very pricey. Comprehensive would include liability.

It would still require a survey, but my process has always been to get the survey done. It would identify deficiencies, but my insurance has always been granted with the undertaking that I would address the deficiencies, which you are in the process of doing.
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Old 12-03-2021, 16:21   #5
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

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I understand you only want liability, but a full comprehensive policy in Ontario is not very pricey. Comprehensive would include liability.
You understand incorrectly. I never had that intention, as I stated: "I'll get a full policy when the work is done, before the boat ever touches water."

The idea of getting a policy post-survey that includes the qualifier that I will address the survey-identified deficiencies before launching, in order to get insurance beforehand, is a good one. I touched bases with one insurance company today about that this morning and received an ambivalent answer, "Depends on what deficiencies the surveyor identifies," so I've sent an email to my surveyor to get his opinion of that approach. It might indeed be a way forward.
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Old 12-03-2021, 16:40   #6
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

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Originally Posted by Buddy_Y View Post
This winter, I bought a 1973 C&C 30 that has been stored in a warehouse since the passing of its PO. I'm in Ontario.
Where is the boat now ?
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Old 13-03-2021, 23:17   #7
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

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Where is the boat now ?
A warehouse in Binbrook, near Hamilton.
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Old 19-03-2021, 12:01   #8
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

I just wanted to update this thread for the benefit of the people who took the time to give advice and for anyone else in the future who finds the thread based on search terms.

After weeks of frustration, it seriously appeared that we would have to move the boat to 'neutral ground' rather than a marina to work on it. As mentioned by others on the thread, the key sticking point is that the boat was so modest in value that the insurers did not want to be flexible -- they just were not going to make enough money off the policy to be worth their time. But then my brother, with whom I'm partnering on the boat, decided to get quotes on a new house insurance policy -- with the proviso that any new policy cover our boat 'on the hard.' CAA Insurance agreed to do so, in order to get the house policy business. They won't cover the boat in the water though (which is fine, since we'll get a full standard policy after survey anyway). As a bonus, my brother's new house policy is a better deal than his old one anyway.

So, off to the marina. Thanks again for the advice, everyone!
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Old 21-03-2021, 12:03   #9
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

Criminy. Here's a sad update to a happy update -- and a warning that shows what a tangle insurance can be.

In my update above, I wrote that CAA Insurance came through for me and my brother after he negotiated a new house policy with them, and I ended with a merry "off to the marina." I thought that was the end. Unfortunately, however, yesterday we caught a knife in our back.

When we had asked CAA to provide a letter to our marina specifying that the new home rental policy my brother negotiated with them covered boat liability, they sent a boiler plate email that did not mention liability. Just modest damage coverage.

We contacted the specific agent who had sold my brother a policy, telling us that it covered boat liability, and asked her to provide a simple email specifying that it covered boat liability on the hard. But to our surprise she blurted: "Why do you even need boat liability on land anyway? It can't sink." We explained that marinas demanded it (boats catch fire etc), and that she promised it.

She then responded with: "Well, then, the policy covers boat liability." We said, "Great, put that in an email or in writing some way."

To our shock, her reply was: "No. Your policy covers boat liability -- but we're not putting that in writing." So, as you can imagine, we don't trust her and the policy, so we don't expect the marina to do so.

Thus, we'll have to pay $$$ to have our boat hauled to a compound somewhere instead of a marina after all.

I'm posting this sad epilogue as a warning to anyone in the future who comes upon this thread in search of insurance advice in Ontario.
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Old 21-03-2021, 12:34   #10
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

I guess, you're going to hate me. Just to check I tried to enter your boat-data for a third party damage insurance into the insurance premium calculator of the ADAC (German touring club and road assistance) which also offers boat insurances as a side business.


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3 million € coverage will cost you under 80€ for the year, worldwide coverage.

No idea if you can use them from Canada.

This was just to show you, it doesn't have to be that complicated. And to gloat a little.
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Old 21-03-2021, 12:48   #11
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

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Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt View Post
I guess, you're going to hate me. Just to check I tried to enter your boat-data for a third party damage insurance into the insurance premium calculator of the ADAC (German touring club and road assistance) which also offers boat insurances as a side business.


Attachment 234962


3 million € coverage will cost you under 80€ for the year, worldwide coverage.

No idea if you can use them from Canada.

This was just to show you, it doesn't have to be that complicated. And to gloat a little.
Alas, getting boating insurance in Canada is typically straightforward and not too expensive either -- I have done it with two previous sailboats -- as long as you have a survey. Indeed, I expect there is a Canadian insurance calculator site that would give us rosy insurance quotes too. However, it's the specific situation of getting liability insurance for a boat that cannot yet pass a survey that's vexing. I expect that your German insurer, like Canadian ones, is based upon the assumption that the boat can pass a survey.
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Old 21-03-2021, 12:55   #12
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

Survey is usually needed for regular insurance on damage on your boat. Third party damage doesn't need it. They'll pay the damage to others as long as you weren't grossly negligent. And that's all the boatyards really care about.
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Old 12-04-2021, 21:58   #13
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

For anyone else who ends up in a similar position and finds their way to the thread: the answer to this catch-22 indeed turned out to be to get the boat surveyed, even though it could not 'pass' a survey. The surveyor noted all the deficiencies that needed addressing, then Skipper's Plan Insurance in Toronto issued what they termed a 'to the shore ' insurance policy that covered the boat on the hard. That allowed me to get it into the marina work yard. Once the deficiencies are addressed in the future, I will have to negotiate a full standard insurance policy before putting the boat in the water.

Thanks to everyone for the advice!
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Old 12-04-2021, 22:23   #14
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Re: Ontario Insurance Catch-22

Random, but with enough digging I’ve found insurance on my previous 1973 C&C 30 MKI where for the coverage the value of the boat was just based on the NADA value.

When I dealt with my ultimate 20, they are kind of a special case... because a whole lot of companies built them throughout the years - apparently NADA doesn’t even have a value for them despite hundreds of hulls. In that case I used progressive as an insurance company and used an “agreed value” for the boat between them and I. Lots of them asking if it was seaworthy for the first go round.

Just nobody likes live aboards on boats liable to sink at any moment.... which is exactly how half the world perceives live aboards apparently.

C&C 30 MKI is a fantastic boat, one of the stiffest made by C&C. It’s a dream to sail in all but the worst conditions. If you’ve got questions on any issues specific to that boat, feel free to PM me.
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