Marine insurance, going naked.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

We carry liability insurance, it is required to use marinas and hardstands where we are. And it would be inadequate to make good a real disaster. We were uninsured completely from about 1989 when we left the States, until about 5 yrs. ago.

During the uninsured time, instead of insurance premiums, we invested in anchors, chain, GPS when it became available, radar, things to keep the boat safer. When we were dismasted, and had to repair the damages from that event, we paid out of pocket. With everything, money wise, we were still ahead by quite a bit, with the savings from not paying premiums. Lifestyle cruising is not a high risk situation. One could not even get "hull insurance" with only two crew on a boat when we left, and we got used to being without it. It does tend to keep one focused, and working out solutions to problems that haven't happened.

Nicely put Ann. My point exactly. Financial insurance is one way to mitigate the risks involved in cruising, but it’s not the only way, and it’s not the best way in all circumstances. It’s also a cost-benefit analysis that all of us must consider (unless resources are unlimited, in which case none of this matters).

Those who claim moral superiority just b/c you carry a piece of paper that says your negligence is covered up to $X are making a specious argument. Does this mean after $X you’re an equal fool, or equal “bum” as some insist on putting it? What about carrying an old-style, undersized anchor, light-weight chain or ridiculously sized cleats? Does that make these folks bums or a selfish fools?

I’ve got nothing against liability insurance. In my calculation, it’s a good investment b/c it is relatively cheap. It’s cheap b/c the insurance companies know they don’t often have to pay out much (gets back to cruising being very safe). But if it became a lot more expensive, I’d have to consider the cost vs the benefits, just like with all decisions.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

Fourth option is to unpack, inflate, leave up for a week, check weight of inflation bottle, repack emergency supplies, and repack the raft.

Way off topic, sorry, but of interest to me as I carry an OOD raft. Assuming the above is not made in jest, I can see that the raft could be pumped up without using the compressed air cylinder but it's all vacuum sealed, which is pretty important I think, so how to repack without paying for the inspection/testing/repacking? Doesn't seem possible.

Back on topic: when I used to sail racing dinghies, no one even considered insuring them. When accidents happened, we helped repair each other's boats. Is this small day-sailer all that different from owning a trailer yacht or dinghy, or do folks insure even their sailing dinghies nowadays?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Way off topic, sorry, but of interest to me as I carry an OOD raft. Assuming the above is not made in jest, I can see that the raft could be pumped up without using the compressed air cylinder but it's all vacuum sealed, which is pretty important I think, so how to repack without paying for the inspection/testing/repacking? Doesn't seem possible.



Back on topic: when I used to sail racing dinghies, no one even considered insuring them. When accidents happened, we helped repair each other's boats. Is this small day-sailer all that different from owning a trailer yacht or dinghy, or do folks insure even their sailing dinghies nowadays?

I watched Survitec in Auckland recertify our life raft when we took it in last May. The raft was three years old and had never been certified (should have had a free certification in the first 12 months to confirm it was ready for service, but the PO didn't do that - bummer, no 12 year warranty). First they open the case and pump it up manually. Then it sits for three days and they check pressure in all the chambers. Then the vacuum all the air out. The most complex part was the folding - they have a folding guide for every model of raft and apparently they're each different. They replaced all the bits and pieces that have dates on them. It was $872 ex GST for a 6person raft with a sub24 hour survival kit. After the flares the most expensive part was the vacuum bag the raft is packed in - that might be the part you can't do for yourself. But I think that's to make sure it fits back in its case - if you don't care that it's bigger then you could skip that.

Years ago on Sydney Harbour I was leasing a guy's Laser. After a really hard race I was on the way back to the sailing club, on port tack and just slumped over trying to recover from the race, when I ran into a 12 foot skiff that was racing. They were on starboard running downwind with a ginormous spinnaker and I guess expected me to change course for them. I was in a world of pain and didn't even see them until I hit them. The Laser speared right through the side of the skiff, broke the main chain plate, and within seconds the skiff was in two pieces with the mast over the side and stuck in the mud of the bottom. Thankfully the two crew slingshotted on their trapezes past my boat and into the water. Long story short, it was the liability insurance that the Laser's owner had that paid the $50,000 AUD it took to repair the skiff. I ended up paying the deductible, about $1500 from memory, but that sure beat paying 50k. No lawyers involved.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Locquatious

We have had the current boat for 35 years and never had insurance except when in charter. If there is damage we absorb the cost. If we cause damage, we pay or offer to pay. The insurance costs would have far exceeded the cost of buying a new boat.

This year, one yard we used for years started enforcing liability insurance. We became aware they are owned by a holding company which owns an insurance company with a liability insurance product. Follow the money! Another yard required liability insurance but offered an alternative of purchasing tie-down screws and straps. We opted for the more positive protection of the tie-downs. Since we are in the BVI's, we'll judge the wisdom of our decision today.

Too many times, especially in today's political morass, we ignore preventative measures and opt for insurance. The insurance expenses spiral up as waste, in the end with nothing gained. But the preventative measures reduce overall expense and reduce waste.

So if your boat blows up, killing my wife and or children, do you have the several million I'm gonna be after to ensure you never forget how stupid it was not to have liability insurance? How can you sleep with yourself knowing that you cannot adequately compensate someone for the harm you could cause?

[inchcailloch]

Wonder how many yotties Irma's path are glad of insurance..........yes, I know most liveaboards would have moved to Grenada/ Trinidad.

[td0tz]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So if your boat blows up, killing my wife and or children, do you have the several million I'm gonna be after to ensure you never forget how stupid it was not to have liability insurance? How can you sleep with yourself knowing that you cannot adequately compensate someone for the harm you could cause?

True Story, Stonington Connecticut. Boat Owner hires a contractor to winterize and "shrink wrap" boat. Contractor with equipment overheats shrinkwrap, starts fire. Several nearby boats burnt, boatyard damaged.

Liability: Well, you hired him. It was your judgement and therefore your responsibility. You're on the hook, and not the good kind.

If you think your pockets are deep enough, you're quite naive.
If your pockets really are that deep, they will be much shallower after.

Liability is cheap because claims are rare, and a million dollar loss to a billion dollar insurance company is really quite small. To you, not so small.

Just because it's rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Just because you've never seen a black swan doesn't mean they don't exist.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So if your boat blows up, killing my wife and or children, do you have the several million ...

Y'all keep hammering on about America but OP is not in America. Things are different, depending on where you live. Try suing a fisherman in Sri Lanka for seven million - see how far you get. Try it in NZ - not a hope. So, maybe stay in your narrow confines, with your narrow viewpoints, or risk seeing the rest of the world. I never had insurance in Oz, not worth the cost, but I sure as hell wouldn't sail within a hundred miles of America without insurance. Different attitudes, different focus. In the US, no choice; elsewhere, you get a quote, then decide if it's worth it. Simple.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Y'all keep hammering on about America but OP is not in America. Things are different, depending on where you live. Try suing a fisherman in Sri Lanka for seven million - see how far you get. Try it in NZ - not a hope. So, maybe stay in your narrow confines, with your narrow viewpoints, or risk seeing the rest of the world. I never had insurance in Oz, not worth the cost, but I sure as hell wouldn't sail within a hundred miles of America without insurance. Different attitudes, different focus. In the US, no choice; elsewhere, you get a quote, then decide if it's worth it. Simple.

Is it really that simple? Can you really weasel out of paying for burning down a marina of killing the breadwinner of a family in other countries? Would you be proud of yourself if you did?

Having liability insurance is a sign of being a responsible person. Not having it is a sign of being a deadbeat. Which are you? Which do you want to be known as?

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Is it really that simple? Can you really weasel out of paying for burning down a marina of killing the breadwinner of a family in other countries? Would you be proud of yourself if you did?

Having liability insurance is a sign of being a responsible person. Not having it is a sign of being a deadbeat. Which are you? Which do you want to be known as?

1. I dunno why you keep referring to SriLankan fishermen as 'deadbeats'. I found them to be the exact opposite. I enjoyed their company immensely and thought them a proud, generous people for whom I held the greatest admiration. Darn, they were uninsured, I shoulda despised them!!

2. I would not feel proud of killing anyone by accident, which is why I take such care not to. With insurance, I know I'd drive faster, take more risks, be more reckless, less averse to risk. Is that the kind of attitude you want us all to adopt? Gung-ho risk-takers, we're covered, becasue our insurance will pick up the damage we cause? That's one point-of-view, not mine.

[Mike OReilly]

Reading these insurance threads often lead me to wonder how some folk even work up the courage to step outside their front door. Some seem so scared of what-could-happen that they don’t seem to understand what-really-happens.

Insurance is about mitigating risk. Risk is proportional to the Impact of an event BY the Likelihood of said event. If either of these factors are negligible, the risk is negligible. All you people and your WHAT IF!!!!! scare scenarios fail to understand the likelihood of all these things are quite low. It’s why liability insurance is so cheap.

Marinas don’t get burned down, breadwinners don’t get killed by negligent behaviour — except in very rare events. Seriously … step away from the screens and try seeing the real world for a change. At very least, take a look at ACTUAL data on the REAL risks of cruising. It might help bring down your blood pressure.

We all have our own risk tolerances, so get all the insurance you need to feel warm and safe. But don’t impose your fear level on everyone else. And please … stop with the insults. THAT is the sign of a real deadbeat.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Reading these insurance threads often lead me to wonder how some folk even work up the courage to step outside their front door. Some seem so scared of what-could-happen that they don’t seem to understand what-really-happens.

Insurance is about mitigating risk. Risk is proportional to the Impact of an event BY the Likelihood of said event. If either of these factors are negligible, the risk is negligible. All you people and your WHAT IF!!!!! scare scenarios fail to understand the likelihood of all these things are quite low. It’s why liability insurance is so cheap.

Marinas don’t get burned down, breadwinners don’t get killed by negligent behaviour — except in very rare events. Seriously … step away from the screens and try seeing the real world for a change. At very least, take a look at ACTUAL data on the REAL risks of cruising. It might help bring down your blood pressure.

We all have our own risk tolerances, so get all the insurance you need to feel warm and safe. But don’t impose your fear level on everyone else. And please … stop with the insults. THAT is the sign of a real deadbeat.

I'm not worried about your risk. My risk is you and others not having insurance. I don't understand why you and the other "no insurance" people don't understand that.

If you cause damage to others and then walk away, that's the definition of a deadbeat.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rwidman

I'm not worried about your risk. My risk is you and others not having insurance. I don't understand why you and the other "no insurance" people don't understand that.

If you cause damage to others and then walk away, that's the definition of a deadbeat.

No one but you is even suggesting that anyone is walking away from anything. It’s only you that has this on the mind, so perhaps you protest too much — perhaps it is you we need to be worried about .

If your assessment of your scary world is that there are “deadbeats” all around you just waiting to do you harm, then you’re right, THAT is your risk assessment. And luckily you can buy insurance for that (which I assume you do). So I’m not sure what you’re complaining about. BTW, odds are it is further wasted insurance money, but it’s your money, so you’re welcome to waste it any way you like.

[LLizzard]

I'm not an insurance wiz, but what about an umbrella policy. Basically it covers me for any liability up to $1mil, and costs me about $800/ year here in CA.

[kimtrang]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So if your boat blows up, killing my wife and or children, do you have the several million I'm gonna be after to ensure you never forget how stupid it was not to have liability insurance? How can you sleep with yourself knowing that you cannot adequately compensate someone for the harm you could cause?

Thanks. This gave me a really good laugh.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by LLizzard

I'm not an insurance wiz, but what about an umbrella policy. Basically it covers me for any liability up to $1mil, and costs me about $800/ year here in CA.

Here in Washington a half mil costs me $100.00 usd a year.
Marina requires 300k but for aditional 10 bucks get half mil
Never needed it but Glad I have it .