Is this boat to good to be true?

[zeehag]

helpful hint--if you learn to sail BEFORE buying a boat, you might be more satisfied with that boat in the long run. less option for fail. less feeling of being overwhelmed which usually hits a boat virgin midway thru 1st-3rd years of ownership. i was able to buy my current cruising ketch due to my neighbor being overwhelmed by his first boat. oops.

[hamburking]

I agree...the boat in the pictures is beautiful. It would be a pleasure to sail on that boat.

But as others have noted, the pics are years old. Thats a red flag right there. I've been to see boats with old pictures, and they NEVER look like the pictures. If the boat still looked that good, there would be current pictures. EVERYONE has a camera in their phone.

Also, a boat like that takes deep pockets to own. Everything is big...the fuel tank, the anchors, the lines, insurance and the marina fees. I could not buy that boat, even if it were $1 (cdn!)...I just could not afford the costs.

In that price range, there are tons of other boats available, so lots of competition.

The price of boats only seems high when you are buying. As soon as you are selling, it seems hard to get anywhere near the actual "value" of the boat, whatever that means. In the end, a boat is worth what you can get for it, on that day.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by zeehag

helpful hint--if you learn to sail BEFORE buying a boat, you might be more satisfied with that boat in the long run. less option for fail. less feeling of being overwhelmed which usually hits a boat virgin midway thru 1st-3rd years of ownership. i was able to buy my current cruising ketch due to my neighbor being overwhelmed by his first boat. oops.

Good point!

And you don't need to own a boat to go sailing. The owner gets to pay the bills, and is responsible for all the grunt work and cleaning all year round. Its much more fun to sail on someone elses boat, have a great time, then walk away.

[Huskybeer]

I would say after seeing a number of these boats that the low asking price can be a lure but certainly a pitfall that will cost you dearly repairing all the unclosed problems

[KP44]

Just some thoughts:
So many boats are Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic (FRP) hulls because steel is high maintenance. The photos are all at least 4 years old. A steel hull neglected for more than a couple years could be in dire straits. (pun intended)
Many custom-built yachts are truly wonderful, and others have intrinsic problems. If this were a bargain, it would have sold quickly.

[1000 islands]

I knew of someone that bought a 5 year old, 58 foot steel hull yacht sight unseen because the price was so good and there (apparently) was a conditional offer on the boat and the person holding the conditional had an offer on his boat and was going to firm up his offer...... so he was told.

The price was $158,000 USD and the exchange CND-US was almost at par.

When he receiced the boat it was late October and the season was pretty much over.

The following season when he actually launched the boat he had a few untold issues but still looked like a steal. Nothing too serious, but costly just the same.

Three years later the hull was in awful shape with rust marks everywhere and the bulkheads etc. that were attached in the interior had to be all re-welded.

He was shocked......the repair estimate was more than he expected.

I'll keep it short as it could get very lengthy after this part. LOL

He got a survey which put the value at far less than the repair cost.

He went to all the normal places to obtain a loan to the less normal places.

In the long run he had to mortgage his house, sell some of his other holdings and borrow from family.

Once it was repaired and he had spent about 2 months on her, he put it up for sale because the cost of running it was way beyond his expectations.

Two years later the "less normal" place he went to borrow money from earlier took it of his hands for nothing more than paying the debts and $10,000 to him.

The approximate value at that time was about $150,000.

Luckily he still has his house and bought a 15 year old 30 foot Sea Ray.

A person in our marina who new the story, did a trip down the Eire Canal to New York, said he saw it in a marina on the Hudson River.....with a for sale sign hanging from it.......LOL

[Stumble]

Let me put it this way... the winches onboard have a new purchase price of probably $70,000 or so, you could strip them and sell them for ~$35,000 used. And that's just the winches. But that's assuming everything is in working order which I doubt.

I would want an engineer to confirm, but 5mm plate thickness sounds pretty light for a boat this size unless it has a lot of internal framing. 4mm would be pretty light in a 40' by comparison.

Wood decks over steel plate is typically a recipe for replacing the deck...

Basically I see a lot of questionable design decisions, no listed designer or build yard, which I consider critical for buying a custom boat, because I want to see their work. All placed on top of a reasonably nice looking deck.


It could be fine, though I doubt it, but for a vessel this size to be offered so cheap it likely means there are some serious issues lurking.

[bvisailing32]

Agree with other posters, and highly recommend that you start with the basics, learn from professional instructors, sail many different types of boats. There is a heck of a lot to learn, and a sailing club with experienced licensed captains and a professional training program might be the proper way to go. That, of course, is up to you.

You want to sail the Caribbean, or most any cruising , a mid 30's length...maybe 35 ft or so, that is a well found vessel, properly rigged, would be good for a couple of people. Easy to manage, handle sails, anchor, maneuver in close quarters, live aboard, and having all systems functioning. Minimal crew required.

If engine failure, you can you sail her into a slip, or to a dock, or on to a mooring single handed or with the help of one crew.

Lots of other considerations, for boat ownership relating to the 30 ft. range, ease for one or two people to sail and trim in all weather conditions, ease of docking and even finding slip space. Same with mooring swing area, and swing area at anchor, less cost for slip fees in relation to LOA, yet comfortable for skipper and crew, and a good boat will take care of you, but you have to have the seaman ship and knowledge to manage what ever you encounter. .

As to a sailing club.

Those instructors will be able to impart loads of knowledge in a professional manner, you will be tested, written , and check outs, on what you have to know. You will take additional classes in marine weather, coastal piloting, passage making, etc.

Then, you need to get out there on the ocean and sail, navigate, use proper sail plan for the conditions, anchor properly, pick up moorings, handle rough weather at sea, reefing down, fog procedures, etc.

Another good idea, is to share a sail down in the BVI and get used to reading reefs, water depths by color and hues, reading charts, and studying cruising guides...plus having a grand ol time. It would give you an introduction to sailing the caribbean and a couple of weeks of grand times.

And, since you wish to buy a boat, by sailing many different makes and lengths , offered by a sailing club you will also discover what you like and need and will look for when you make that purchase .

One simple thing is head room down below, and berth length for sleeping . How about stowage space, and plumbing systems, auto pilot, gps, trustworthy diesel engine, the ratio of chain to line rode for the anchor. Highly important is good sails and running and standing rigging. Even cockpit space, and type of reefing systems.

Also, as others recommended, be very cautious of what the owner or broker represents the vessel to be. Get an individual survey, and please do not buy it over the internet. You personally need to inspect that vessel yourself as well as the survey.

I was in that biz for lots of decades, and we would have a boat owner call to put their vessel on lease back with the sailing club. Glowing reports on the boat from the owners, and photos can be deceptive as to actual condition. Same for deliveries.

Most every time the vessel was not up to standards and not even close. So, we would not accept their boat.

Just had a dear friend , who recently sold her 38 foot sailing vessel, which she would single hand to catalina, for years. She just purchased a 50 foot power boat. She told me ,she is having problems with one of the engines. Metal in the oil, black smoke out the exhaust. I asked her did she have a survey, that problem would have been picked up during the survey.

Nope, the people who sold the the boat were friends a couple of gangways down, and no survey was done.

You are new, and have a lot to learn, we all did ,and still do . I also believe in professional training along with gaining real sea time and experience. Takes both and a lot of work on your part. But, with your enthusiasm it will be a labor of love. Never stop learning

On the water you will be in an alien environment, and we believe that any disrespect or indifference of the ocean can cause king neptune to jump up and whack you hard.

With all that said, it is up to the individual as to how they wish to enter into the world of sailing. Everyone is free to make their own decisions,and will have their own personal ideas as how they proceed.

[SV DestinyAscen]

It's pleasing to look at. But all the pictures are old.

Think about why someone would be trying to unload a boat with old pictures.

Steel. Wood. If you like spending money to make it look good instead of leaving the dock, there are plenty of options closer.

[KP44]

Originally Posted by bvisailing32

Also, as others recommended, be very cautious of what the owner or broker represents the vessel to be. Get an individual survey, and please do not buy it over the internet. You personally need to inspect that vessel yourself as well as the survey.
.... Metal in the oil, black smoke out the exhaust. I asked her did she have a survey, that problem would have been picked up during the survey.

I have a word of caution about surveys.
There was one surveyor recommended by everyone, including John Neal, in Seattle. And I was inexperienced. So I made the special appointment and had him do my boat's survey. He demanded cash before he would come aboard. (And that raised a red flag.) When I received the survey, the length was off by 9 feet, the engine was wrong, the anchor rode was wrong, the VHF radio was listed as not working even though I used it myself. I requested specifically that the engine oil be sampled and he did not include that in the survey. I don't recall anything in the survey that was right.
It looked like the surveyor just looked up the wrong boat model and wrote a survey in his office.
This is a horror story but it is true! I could not get financing for this 45' boat because it was surveyed as 36'. Page 2 of my copy of the survey was missing and I received two copies of page 3. (So I could not even see what was written on page 2.)
Then - the surveyor refused to correct anything!
My wife convinced the office secretary that there was a typo and the secretary changed 36' to 45', and sent that to the finance company.
I did not receive a full copy of our survey until weeks after we owned the boat. The surveyor finally apologized, but his survey was worthless. SAMS said they would censure the surveyor if I pursued the complaint but I dropped it. (Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors)

So here is an opinion - Finance and Insurance require surveys and you might need a survey. But do not depend upon a SAMS surveyor for anything beyond a document required by insurance.

[Larry Florida]

Buy an inexpensive boat, 10k should be plenty. Can learn many lessons without going broke.

[azsailingnoob]

wow, thank you everyone for responding. It took me a little while to find my own post in this forum..lol. reading through your comments I couldn't help but agree that this would be far beyond my abilities. Yea the pictures being so old and the wood deck on steel, who knows what lurks.. that with the amount of money on upkeep would be beyond me.

Alot of good info, I especially enjoy the lessons you guys imparted from other sailors past mistakes. I am not there, it is sad I might never get to that point. But I agree, I need to learn to crawl then walk before I start running. It would be a recipe for disaster.

my being from AZ and being landlocked i got hooked when i was 12 and was taken on a sail to catalina island on a catalina 42 with a family friend, departed before dark under somewhat rough seas and got sick moored somewhere north of avalon and then hung out for the weekend, stayed in emerald bay ,snorkeled, sailed back under great conditions, dolphins at the bow of the boat. jumped in with them and swam in the middle of the ocean. It was the greatest and i was hooked, and i was young and had to go back to AZ, and high school, military school, 9-11. the US Army, life happened, then mid twenties and hurt and civilian life and work and more work.

That is not to say the dream died, as I am sure we all share similar versions. With few that sailed all their lives because their families or friends sailed, jealous I have worked in IT the last ten years and now I am done with it for now.my back just cant take it, even after i built a standing desk. so I quit and and am building a house in the forest of northern az. I fix and build things alot, sometimes I think i can fix anything, lol i know that is not true, engines are a weak point, but that is something I like about sailboats. the maintenance, that might sound weird, it does seem to be a labor of love, but yes I see the need for a balance, and to not let that thing you love and put so much work into become something that hurts you.

Things like removing the whole wood deck on that boat, and sandblasting the steel and me, you guys will laugh at me, I would like to line-x and entire steel boat. or aluminum. which might be better, inside and deck, especially in white, on the hull I am not sure... they do have a smooth version for the hull but I'm wary. I do want to do that because I really think if properly prepared, alot of the maintenance on steel could be delayed very long periods at a time. and on any boat over 40' i dont think it would be a weight issue, maybe like 400 lbs. 2 large men. alot of new materials are hydrophobic and anti fouling. It just seems like on all forums, sailors say that it will devalue the boat, but isn't rust or galvanization (corrosion) the real enemy that will absolutely devalue the boat. I still have yet to find anybody that has done this to a sailboat, and posted picture. if you lose a half knot or a even a knot but your boat does not rust.. which is more valuable? plus the added protection if you run aground. or when you think about the dark corners of the bilge and you know its actually protected. I know this is a topic for another thread im sure. I am a person that likes things built to last and do it right the first time. I like fiberglass boats and how they look and perform, but and there are buts, I think metals can last alot longer. aluminum given the light weight might be a whole lot better for that application than steel, I think older version of both are great platforms to really test on. and restore. awww I am going on. apologies.

that is another thing, junk rigging and sails. there is so much about maritime practices and sailing that i do not know, but it seems any kind of ship rigged as a junk is worth less, but a junk with whatever ship design costs are incredibly less than the marconi design.. is that correct? why dont more sailors do this, honestly, do sailors look down on those types? not kidding. like they are not serious sailors? hmm it seems like the cost of rigging and sails is so much less and the ability to even do all the rigging and sailmaking yourself and save bundles.with the ability to shorthand is there a big loss in performance?

I will be doing a sailing school, Bluewater, ASA, local.will see. then a small boat to start, and see how it goes. I might be a trailer sailor at first but that is ok. I am curious, if any are still reading do you know people that live in 2 locations, ie. colorado in the fall/winter and florida, then to Carribean in spring summer on the boat. and come back before hurricane season. me being really frugal have being looking into dry dock, haul out, slip fees all throughout florida and even to al, and ms, even deep water canal lots with no or small hoa. I am curious if someone has purchased a canal lot with the sole intention of parking your sailboat there half the year. and with costs of the cheapest right now being around 50k in florida on gulf coast. have people looked at or know anybody that lives or has a lot with a sailboat in Shoreline park, MS. with canal lots starting around 10k, and the only bridge leaving the canal is on st louis bay, i90. i dont know the clearance of that bridge or the depth of canals..gmaps shows some sailboats.. thoughts? a permanent home for a boat in a cheap location but the community is 97% white if that matters. most people being boat people.. has anyone sailed that area? gone from there down florida? or across.. to the keys? link to zillow shoreline park

Zillow: Real Estate, Apartments, Mortgage & Home Values in the US

Living that double life is very appealing, as although i might want to go on a voyage for years. I just don't think i could do it because of my family. something i have been coming to grips with is the fact i cannot abandon everything to do this which is in some ways the soul of what this is. isnt it?lol so i know i can learn and manage a small boat here in az or ca. but the bigger dream... the bigger boat... to make that a sure reality the logistics and planning are for what i can do now and not maybe what i can do then. because with all things i do want to be realistic.

ok gents, thank you for your time and welcomes to this forum... fair winds to ye all. nite.

ps. thank god i copied this (ctrl-v) before as it took some time and the forum timed me out and had to sign back in... will post shorter things from now on...

[SteveSadler]

I saw many charter boats like this in Greece over the last 3 years. Full of guests and making a good living doing it. Greeks are historically skilled boat builders, and I would care to guess it would pass a survey reasonably well, assuming it has been maintained consistently. If the owner was foreclosed on or bought a bigger boat, this could be a great bargain if you want to charter. As a private yacht, it's far to big and expensive to maintain, as well as the fuel consumption as mentioned previously. I suggest looking at ex charter boats just released from charter service after 5- 8 years of chartering, and need to be sold before the new boat arrives in April. The prices go soft and 35' to 45' boats are cheap and plentiful.

[moniia]

Funny enough, I know this boat, having met them few times in the Med. It was a bit later than 2009 and she looked very well kept and smart - and also well equipped - but it was still few years back so I cannot offer too much information about her current state.

After a very careful survey it is something worth looking at. Don't think about diesel she uses as she does use very little - she is a proper sailboat after all and all she needs is wind. I I can tell, she can sail, that I saw myself

[dlymn]

If you want a Greek built boat, buy an Ocean Star. 50+ foot for less than 150,000 10+ berths, f/glass hull, big motor, big sail area, twin helms, often with AC