Is there really a buyer's shortage?

[Chattcatdaddy]

Originally Posted by TomandAnitas34

Back to the boats, I am seeing some sales on my " desirable boats list ". Some "Under contract" kind of things. The oldest boats, pre 1977, seem to be a growing percentage of boats, at least in the price ranges and lengths I'm looking at, in Florida. 'Course, you get what you pay for and there is a reason old boats are cheap....

That was the type of market I was in as well. Just gotta know how to seperate the good from thee crap boats. Deals are out there and cheap doesn`t always mean bad or a big project. Every boat is a world and experience independent of all the others out there for sale.

My Ariel is not a fixer upper just needed additions to make it liveable for long tern cruising. Granted I went thru a lot of boats that were subpar before I came across this deal and then it was 750 miles out of my ideal search area. The smart patient buyer can really make out in this market. It also helps if you know what you are looking for in advance and once that great boat comes up at a great price be prepared to deal. I drove 750 miles on short notice and spent a few hours going over the boat and made a deal on the spot.

Good luck to all you soon to be owners the deals/boats are there and sometimes you find them and sometimes they find you.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Well...if you live in negativity, doom and gloom...that's exactly what you're going to get. I have a good job, my home and properties are paid off. I have a bitchin boat and all the toys I ever wanted. I'm retiring early and going to voyage...Kill your Television...that's the enemy, if you really need one.

Those are my thoughts exactlly.. I've started 2 bussiness sence 2008 and both are booming..
and just brought on My son to start a custom stainless company, doing upper end welding and polishing, and dumped a few "K" in equeptment..
And we're already booking jobs..
By the way, the Oakland Boat Show is this weekend, and I'll be one of those with a big wallet to buy new goodies for my "Paid Off" boat..

Life is what you make of it, and how much you put into it.. If I were reduced to picking up cans along side the hi-way, I'd strive to be the best there was, and I'd probably make a good living out of it..
You can set around bitching about what the government has done to you and how the economy has tanked OR get off your ass and do something about it..

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Well...if you live in negativity, doom and gloom...that's exactly what you're going to get. .

100% agree. Been seeing that for years. Remember the crunch in the seventies when "they" were predicting economic collapse followed by anarchy; moving to the woods and stocking up on food, guns and ammo. Wonder what happened to all that canned food?

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I have a good job, my home and properties are paid off. I have a bitchin boat and all the toys I ever wanted. I'm retiring early and going to voyage.

Pretty much me except for the retire early and I can always think of a few more toys to buy. Can't complain since when I was younger I spent 10-12 years being a boat bum with no income to speak of. So I work a little longer before my second retirement.

On the other hand, I do see a segment of the population that is in deep manure. My wife is a social worker and sees the upper lower class to lower middle class segment. In that area a lot of people are suffering. Couples are moving back in with parents because they can't afford even rent. With limited job skills and education the better paying jobs have dried up and they are down to working minimum wage in the service industry ie. burger flipping and the like.

I know a number of skilled laborers: tile setters, cabinet makers, outboard mechanics that are out of work, can't find work and wondering how they are going to live. Sure I deal with plenty of people in this group that are still doing well but the percentage of those that aren't has grown a lot.

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Kill your Television...that's the enemy, if you really need one.

"Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home"

John Prine, Spanish Pipedream.

I might take poetic license with they lyrics and say "Go the to the ocean, build you a boat"

[David M]

It's all supply and demand. You can easily find a 10 year old fiberglass boat that is just as good as a new boat at less than half the original price. This is a no brainer as to what is the better deal.

If fiberglass rotted away like cars wear out, then we would not have great bargains on used fiberglass boats.

A secondary effect is the limited supply of slips to keep ones boat. This drives up the cost to rent a slip, which increases the cost of ownership, which makes owning a boat less desirable, which in turn drops the demand for owning a boat, which in turn drops the price of used boats.

In this market, probably one of the best ways of throwing away your money is to buy a new boat, unless you see a new boat that is the only thing that you want and you do no mind the huge depreciation over a period of a few years.

[LostAtSea2011]

Originally Posted by ohdrinkboy

I laugh when they say "new electronics (2007)." Really it's 5 year old electronics that would have to be replaced.

Why would the electronics need replaced If they still work??

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by zeta

I am currently looking for my cruising boat and there are plenty of boats available in the current market, I'll know the right one when I find it so I am in no hurry, but ready at the trigger. I agree good boats go fast and buyer must be at the ready.
Seller's market maybe wishful thinking on folks wanting to sell a boat, but the market is down and there are many great boats available for much less than 5 yrs ago. Hans Christians <70K, Southern Cross <30K, etc. I'm talking 20/30+ year old boats, with many in very good condition. Yes many will take some time/money to suit ones needs, but so do newer boats.
True turn key newer boats will be priced sometimes more than new, but for me this is not what I am looking for. Many of the newer boats are priced way over market value because owner believes boat is worth more than it is or they are upside down on them.
IMHO, cash, not falling in love, and ready to move, will get you more boat for your money than anytime I've seen in my lifetime.

Yep, perfect approach. Dont get emotional, be rational and savvy.

[Celestialsailor]

I notice a trend these days of well made boats from the late 60's to late 70's boats that represent a good market value and always have. Without disclosing what I paid for my boat, I can tell you it is 1/3 of market value (and yes, I paid the asking price). I have done this 4 or so times since the late 80's. Yes...it is a lot of work restoring a boat. But what is the knowledge worth? I can literally fix anything on my boat or yours. When I started working on my first restoration, I had never turned on a router, mixed resin, welded or rebuilt a diesel engine. Now, I don't even give it a second thought. If I'm interested in a boat, I can look at her for a few hours and know if it will be worth it.
I want to address one more thing while I'm ranting here. That is the thought that you can wait like a vulture for the economy to collapse and slink in like some vermin to weasel out a boat from under someones misery. If that were even true and all things in life being equal, do you really think you would be successful with it or even happy?

[susanna reiter]

It is a buyer's market...such buyers as there are.

[jm21]

The problem that annoys me is the owners sunk wads of money into the boat doing "improvements" and now want it back, but we have no interest in their "improvements."

For example, we just saw a boat that was designed with a cutter rig and the guy paid untold thousands to replace everything and make it a sloop. I would have preferred a cutter rig, especially since it was what the boat was designed for, so it's a negative for me. But the seller wants to tag on a huge amount for the money he spent.

Another boat, they had sunk huge amounts into re-doing the interior with expensive hardwoods. Looks nice, but not that much better, and I'm not paying extra for that as I don't need it.

Another boat was owned by an engineer and he made an incredibly complicated electrical system for the boat...I saw all the wiring and crap and just thought what a headache it would be if you ever had to fix something (no diagrams or anything, and was done over 5 years ago).

It's like someone trying to sell a 1997 honda with a $6,000 stereo system and asking $10k for it, thinking they want to make money back that they spent on the stereo. But the people who are looking for a 1997 Honda typically do not care about having an expensive stereo.

New electronics 5 years ago is not a selling point, I think was the point. It's like saying the boat has a running engine, or that the mast isn't broken.

[rolandgilbert99]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I notice a trend these days of well made boats from the late 60's to late 70's boats that represent a good market value and always have.

There are, in my opinion, two kinds of oldies, those that have not been upgraded and are project boats and they should sell for peanuts, and those with extensive upgrades, like mine, where the owner has invested sometimes twice the amount he paid for (my case). This may sound like a foolish investment, but for those who rather spend over a longer period of time and have the ability and knowledge to refurbish an older boat, this is a way to access a bigger and better boat without selling the house and all the furnitures. And if I put my boat on the market, I don't expect to see every dollar I spent coming back to me, but the price will not be the one of a project boat for sure because there are still some buyers considering this and willing to pay more for a good old boat as long as the proof of the upgrades are tangible, invoices available to potential buyers and the survey is ok. IMHO.

[David M]

Their is always the factor of what modifications were made to the boat and how well they were done. Some owners can do really good work and some not so good.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by jm21

The problem that annoys me is the owners sunk wads of money into the boat doing "improvements" and now want it back, but we have no interest in their "improvements."

For example, we just saw a boat that was designed with a cutter rig and the guy paid untold thousands to replace everything and make it a sloop. I would have preferred a cutter rig, especially since it was what the boat was designed for, so it's a negative for me. But the seller wants to tag on a huge amount for the money he spent.

Another boat, they had sunk huge amounts into re-doing the interior with expensive hardwoods. Looks nice, but not that much better, and I'm not paying extra for that as I don't need it.

Another boat was owned by an engineer and he made an incredibly complicated electrical system for the boat...I saw all the wiring and crap and just thought what a headache it would be if you ever had to fix something (no diagrams or anything, and was done over 5 years ago).

It's like someone trying to sell a 1997 honda with a $6,000 stereo system and asking $10k for it, thinking they want to make money back that they spent on the stereo. But the people who are looking for a 1997 Honda typically do not care about having an expensive stereo.

New electronics 5 years ago is not a selling point, I think was the point. It's like saying the boat has a running engine, or that the mast isn't broken.

something that you'll have to learn.. there's a seat built for every ass out there, its just putting the two together..
Sold My 57 chevy Nomad a couple years ago.. Lot of people didnt like the paxton blower I put on it and said I destroyed the car by changing the drivetrain, some said they didnt like the paint scheme.. but for every person bitching about what I had done, there were two or three that fell in love with it.. lot of people wanted it and said I was asking to much..
ended up selling it "ON-LINE" to a guy in China, for the price I was asking.. Then I heard people bitching about me sending it out of the country.. And then I realized, some people just like to Bitch..

Something I've always stood by, and still do today..
If you cant run with the big dogs, get your butt back up on the porch..

And if you dont like whats out there to chose from, build it yourself.
And if the price is to high, get a second job.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99

Some people say there are so many boats on the market that nowaday one can get real bargains and I am not convinced of this. And here is my reasonning:
- This year and next year, millions of babyboomers will retire and a lot of them have not yet decided between the RV or the boat.
- For boats similar to mine, prices have on average gone up, even though some are selling for very cheap mostly because they have not been upgraded, but those in good shape are selling for more than anyone could have hoped to sell 6 or 7 years ago when I looked for mine.
- The economy does not bring a lot of opportunities for those looking for good businesses, major executive positions, etc. Some have decided to drop out, at least for a while, and go off sailing and see the world while they have the chance to do it.
- Due to the huge number of boat seekers, people with diffucult to sale boats are putting them on the market at bargain prices, still too expensive for the condition of the boats, this give the effect that there are many "bargains" out there.

Am I out to lunch or is there a little bit of thruth in this? Your opinion?

The ONLY shortage is a shortage of WELL MAINTAINED boats. Always has been and I assume always will be.

I just listened to an owner belly ache the other day that his boat has been on the market 2 years with not a nibble or offer. "Market sucks." Whaaaa, whaaaa, whaaaa... His boat is a PIG, wreaks of a head system never maintained, the bilge is FILTHY and filled with oil and antifreeze, there is mold everywhere, the sails and running rigging are about equal to used handkerchiefs and UV killed clothes line, it has numerous deck leaks and the core is soaked and the electrical system would be good for death row inmates to play with. Of course he thinks this thing is a gem and can't understand why no one would want it.. He wanted me to fix some wiring thinking that would help. I was polite and told him to hire a very good detailer and plan on spending upwards of $1500.00+ to make her halfway presentable. He complained that the last to showings never even boarded the boat, just pulled up, eyeballed, and walked away...

Meanwhile my buddy George lists his boat, not expecting to sell it quickly due to the market, and it is sold in 6 days at asking price. Why? SPOTLESS and in true "sailaway" condition.

Two years ago I made one post on Sailnet about a buddy selling his very well maintained Ericson and there were two offers by the weekend. Boat sold without a broker from one post describing how clean and well maintained the boat was... Buyers are out there, just not for the crap some folks call boats.

There are plenty of buyers waiting to pounce on well maintained boats but perhaps less than 2% of the boats out there are what I would consider "well maintained".... All of our boats have sold quickly and at the top of the price range for their model. No secret just keep it looking good and in good mechanical condition and it will sell.....

Let the systems wear, let it look like crap, ignore issues, put off maintenance and the re-sale results will follow and match your lack of upkeep...

[Capt Phil]

Rolandgilbert99 has the right idea, IMO... don't expect to get the $ you put in to a fixer-upper or even a boat that was in fairly good shape to which you added electronics, new gen set, refer, whatever. You will NOT get your investment back.
The additions/refurbishments you make should either add to seaworthyness, your own comfort or safety... they should not be made to make the boat more saleable.
I have either made more than I put into a boat or broke even on resale and got 0% for sweat equity but that had more to do with buying her at the right cost than any additions I made to the last few boats I've owned.
Maine Sail is also correct in observing that well maintained boats that present well even if they are used extensively will move quickly at good prices even in this market. Brokers, in the main, fail to sell this feature adequately, IMO, and claim that such and such vessel has 'sound bones' whatever the hell that means. Actually, I've known and dealt with brokers that used the same description for vessels that ranged from outstanding condition to slowly sinking. Herein lies one of the biggest hurdles that buyers face when buying a used boat... trying to get a fix on the true condition. Even with a competent surveyor, it can be a bit of a crap shoot. Hence, the lowball offer that sellers complain about. Capt Phil

[ohdrinkboy]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

The ONLY shortage is a shortage of WELL MAINTAINED boats. Always has been and I assume always will be.

I just listened to an owner belly ache the other day that his boat has been on the market 2 years with not a nibble or offer. "Market sucks." Whaaaa, whaaaa, whaaaa... His boat is a PIG, wreaks of a head system never maintained, the bilge is FILTHY and filled with oil and antifreeze, there is mold everywhere, the sails and running rigging are about equal to used handkerchiefs and UV killed clothes line, it has numerous deck leaks and the core is soaked and the electrical system would be good for death row inmates to play with. Of course he thinks this thing is a gem and can't understand why no one would want it.. He wanted me to fix some wiring thinking that would help. I was polite and told him to hire a very good detailer and plan on spending upwards of $1500.00+ to make her halfway presentable. He complained that the last to showings never even boarded the boat, just pulled up, eyeballed, and walked away...

Meanwhile my buddy George lists his boat, not expecting to sell it quickly due to the market, and it is sold in 6 days at asking price. Why? SPOTLESS and in true "sailaway" condition.

Two years ago I made one post on Sailnet about a buddy selling his very well maintained Ericson and there were two offers by the weekend. Boat sold without a broker from one post describing how clean and well maintained the boat was... Buyers are out there, just not for the crap some folks call boats.

There are plenty of buyers waiting to pounce on well maintained boats but perhaps less than 2% of the boats out there are what I would consider "well maintained".... All of our boats have sold quickly and at the top of the price range for their model. No secret just keep it looking good and in good mechanical condition and it will sell.....

Let the systems wear, let it look like crap, ignore issues, put off maintenance and the re-sale results will follow and match your lack of upkeep...

well said