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Old 20-03-2018, 09:02   #1
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International insurance for Swedish boat

I'm from Sweden and I plan a long cruise. It is difficult to find an insurance for my boat outside Scandinavia. I have found three Swedish companies who insure boats for water sailing">blue water sailing. One company only insure boats which are at least 33 feet, my is 32 (it is tempting to add one foot on the hull). The next sell only insurance to boats with a value of at least 500 000 SEK (60 000 USD), I don't think my is worth more than 400 000 SEK. The last company don't insure boats older than 30 years, my is 33. A Norwegian company I contacted did only sell insurance for Norwegian boats.
Which company can give me an insurance for an “antique” “tiny” “wreck” with Swedish flag?
One thing that might make it more complicated is that I'm the only permanent member onboard. I will try to have friends and paying crew on the longer passages, but it would be nice with an insurance that also will cover sailing alone if that will be necessary. Sailing single handed along the coast is necessary.
It would be good to have an insurance with coverage for loss of my own boat, but it is the liability insurance that is most important. Insurance of the crew for health care and transportation to land would be nice too (cheaper health insurance).
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Old 22-03-2018, 17:54   #2
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

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Originally Posted by Arrandir View Post
..., but it would be nice with an insurance that also will cover sailing alone if that will be necessary. Sailing single handed along the coast is necessary..
You can get coverage for single handed coastal sailing for short distances usually 150nm -250 NM from land. Further than that and you're probably not able to get coverage and you will void your policy or have your claim denied if you do so. The reason would be "failure to maintain your boat in a seaworthy condition". The legal definition of "Seaworthy" includes having an adequate number of crew onboard for the intended passage. Most people can't stay continuously awake for periods of more than 24 hours. You're not maintaining an adequate watch if you're sleeping! And don't give me that story about how you'll pop up on deck every 15 minutes and catnap between! On my last trip from Tonga to NZ a sleeping single-hander on autopilot almost ran us down. After repeated hails on the radio, his sleepy response was that he thought he'd be woken up by an AIS signal if anyone came close! Guess what, AIS transmit is not yet required everywhere, so I only have receive. We've "snuck up" on sleeping single handers more times than makes me comfortable. I don't think it's morally right for single handers to put other vessels at risk by single handing long passages on well travelled routes.
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Old 22-03-2018, 18:43   #3
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

fwiw, I find it a little harsh to say it's not morally right for people to singlehand. It kind of puts them in the same category as malicious mischief. Many singlehand because they have no partner: some might want one, and not have one from death, or some less dire reason; others may simply prefer their own company.

Being in the way, overtaken from astern, so he should have kept clear, and couldn't because he was sleeping? Not nice at all...AND part of the dangers of sailing today. What we do is not intrinsically safe. Could your watch protocol have been improved? When you saw he was overtaking you, when you saw he did not plan to keep clear, could you not have made a short term course change that would take you out of his way? perhaps that's what you did. One thing, on the major sailing routes, if you select a course +5 n. mi. either side of the rhumb line, you can miss most of the traffic, who seem to try stick to the rhumb line.

We've been overtaken from astern by a motor vessel with all crew below sleeping, and it's sort of creepy, because you keep expecting them to show you a course change, and they don't, plus you don't know which way they might turn if they were paying attention and tried to avoid you at the last moment, either. We avoided that one, and we think he was on his track, from his fishing grounds to his home base, all the turns programmed in, probably. It's kind of hard if you're sailing deep down wind.

It's really hard at night, because your depth perception isn't so good [although radar can help, if they have a reasonable return], and also hard to anticipate, but possible, if you act way ahead, and turn early, so their course will take them away...whether or not anyone's on watch on the other boat, maybe that would work for you. Certainly not appropriate for the Channel, but possibly safer in the reaches of the Pacific.

I think what's hardest, though, are the unlit boats on moonless nights, although full moon can make it hard to see the other guys' lights, too. You keep the best watch you can, and the rest is in the laps of the gods.


************

Apologies for the thread drift, and now, back to Sweden and insurance possibilities.

Ann
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Old 22-03-2018, 19:48   #4
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

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We've "snuck up" on sleeping single handers more times than makes me comfortable. I don't think it's morally right for single handers to put other vessels at risk by single handing long passages on well travelled routes.
Really, you have had lots of near misses with sleeping single handers? To be frank, I find this hard to believe. We've done a lot of ocean miles and have yet to encounter such a situation. Plenty of boats not keeping adequate watch, but not because of the sleeping solo sailor issue so I have my doubts.

And if you have indeed "snuck up" on such craft, it is implied that you were aware of their presence well in advance of any risk of collision. COLREGS require that in such cases, when you see that the give way vessel is not doing so, it is your duty to take whatever avoiding action is prudent to avoid the possibility of collision. And if the sleeping soloist is the stand on vessel, you should have long since taken action, not snuck up to him. So, I reckon that while not compliant with watchkeeping standards, the sleeping soloist is hardly morally corrupt.

Finally, there are lots of solo voyagers out there. There are few reports of collisions caused by their sleep habits... far more of them colliding with stationary things like continents and their subsets of rocks. Hard on the soloist, but not a big hazard to other sailors. In the few cases I'm aware of, collisions between solo sailors have mostly involved much larger "target" vessels who were at little risk... for instance, when Jessica Watson collided with the Chinese ship, the ship was undamaged.

I'll not argue that single handing is not inherently more dangerous than sailing with an active crew, for it surely is. However, IMO it is not so greatly so as to become morally untenable in terms of risk to innocent mariners.

And I too apologize for thread drifting!

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Old 22-03-2018, 19:56   #5
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

If a proper watch (someone above deck and watching 100% of the time) is not possible due to lack of crew onboard, the vessel is not seaworthy. This has been proven in maritime case law over & over again. The last one came at us head on, in broad daylight. A small boat, big seas, & he was wandering back & forth with an erratic course. We headed to starboard to avoid him, and then he seemed to follow us. We went back and forth a few times, like a poorly choreographed dance. Maybe he had a bad autopilot? A poorly balanced wind vane? It became apparent that something was not right, so we hailed him repeatedly, and that's when we discovered he was asleep and his boat was just wandering back & forth on the opposite heading to ours. When two boats are closing at 15 knots, you don't have much time to figure out what's going on, much less wake up the other skipper. And we were 100 NW west the Rhumb line, having headed there to get favorable wind. The only difference between single-handers and driving a car with your eyes closed is there are fewer obstacles and other people on the ocean than on the road. But that doesn't make it OK to put others at risk. If you can't maintain a proper watch, get crew. Sure what we do is not risk free, but I find it offensive that some people are willing to increase the risks to their fellow sailors for selfish, personal, or convenience reasons when they should know better. How would you feel about flying trans-Atlantic on a plane with just a single captain and no-co-pilot? There's a reason airlines require multiple flight officers.
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Old 22-03-2018, 20:34   #6
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

Quote:
If a proper watch (someone above deck and watching 100% of the time) is not possible due to lack of crew onboard, the vessel is not seaworthy. This has been proven in maritime case law over & over again.
Broad statement, not backed by data. On the other hand, in the well reported case of the Jessica Watson collision, even though she was solo, asleep and not maintaining watch, the Chinese ship was judged to be the major contributor to the collision... as noted in the final investigation report. No judgement that her vessel was unseaworthy as you insist.

Your analogies of road traffic and flying are pretty outlandish don't you think? Driving blind on the road will surely and quickly come to grief, and with severe consequences to the driver. Yet, the general success of solo sailors is pretty well established with most voyages finishing safely.

In your example, the erratic behavior of the soloist lead you to make multiple course changes in your attempt to avoid him. You have not defined the situation with respect to who was stand on and who was give way. If you were the give way vessel, it would have been wise to take a large enough course change to completely clear his possible track and do so well in advance considering his erratic steering. Similarly if you were the stand on and had determined that he was not avoiding, a large and stable course change is advised under COLREGS. Even if he was a crewed vessel and encountering steering difficulties, your alternating starboard and port course changes (I think that is what you have described as your actions) are contrary to good practice.

I think that you got a fright, at least partially from your own response to the situation, and this has lead to your outrage. Yes, this was a bad situation, but no, I fail to see that solo sailing is immoral nor that it significantly raises the risk to other sailors. Some might say that while it is not required by law, your not broadcasting an AIS signal raises the risks to other mariners. I could even say " I find it offensive that some people are willing to increase the risks to their fellow sailors for selfish, personal, or convenience reasons when they should know better" and fit an active AIS. Sound familiar?

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Old 22-03-2018, 21:01   #7
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

I'm an offender, here, and I am going to ask that we take the moralizing relative to singlehanding and make a new thread elswhere on CF, if there is a desire for it. ...and get back to Arrandir's original questions, please.
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***************

Now, here is the OP for our consideration, and sorry, Arrandir, again, for the drift:

"I'm from Sweden and I plan a long cruise. It is difficult to find an insurance for my boat outside Scandinavia. I have found three Swedish companies who insure boats for water sailing">blue water sailing. One company only insure boats which are at least 33 feet, my is 32 (it is tempting to add one foot on the hull). The next sell only insurance to boats with a value of at least 500 000 SEK (60 000 USD), I don't think my is worth more than 400 000 SEK. The last company don't insure boats older than 30 years, my is 33. A Norwegian company I contacted did only sell insurance for Norwegian boats.
Which company can give me an insurance for an “antique” “tiny” “wreck” with Swedish flag?
One thing that might make it more complicated is that I'm the only permanent member onboard. I will try to have friends and paying crew on the longer passages, but it would be nice with an insurance that also will cover sailing alone if that will be necessary. Sailing single handed along the coast is necessary.
It would be good to have an insurance with coverage for loss of my own boat, but it is the liability insurance that is most important. Insurance of the crew for health care and transportation to land would be nice too (cheaper health insurance).


So, two questions here, with whom can you find insurance? As far as I know, Pantaenius may offer coverage. Mostly, from the grapevine, they have a good reputation. Whether they will insure you or not, you'll want to want to work forcefully with a representative, to impress them with your responsibility and concerns.

About liability insurance, sometimes term liability insurance is available from the countries you're visiting. Some places require liability insurance if you need to put the boat in a marina, or to put it in the haulout yard.

Next question, about health insurance? Here again, some emergency medical cover can be obtained in some of the countries you may visit. It is some serious searching if you are looking for something that will cover everything you want. It may help to work with an insurance broker.

If you have crew who pay you, you will need some insurance that is different, you have special responsibilities towards those you accept as crew, although you might insist that they carry their own medevac insurance. As an aside, I'd suggest that having paying crew will open a whole new area of liabilities for you that you need to investigate in depth...with a broker.

Your needs are complicated, and only persons familiar with many types of policies will have informed answers.

Good luck with it, Arrandir, and I apologize to you again, for the thread drift.

Ann
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Old 22-03-2018, 22:48   #8
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

I should have written that I’m not interested in a discussion about if it is unethical to single hand.
I hope I can end that part of the discussion with this: 150-250 NM from land is hopefully more than I need. I found a forum where someone wrote about an insurance company that did not allow more than 12 hours. A health insurance company I called didn’t cover anything if you are making way through the water under sail alone. That is not enough for me.
There is another thread for those of you who would like to discuss the ethics: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-199076.html

Most sailors I have discussed this with recommend Pantaenius. When I talked to them they said they don’t insure boats under 10 meters for blue water cruising. Yesterday I got the answer that they also have a limit of 100 000 USD.
I have read in several places that paying crew can be a problem if something happens, the limit between share expenses and charter is not clear. Have someone any examples or is it just a myth? It is not the money that is most important if I bring paying crew. It is more important with the company with someone with the same interest and making a safer voyage.
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Old 22-03-2018, 22:51   #9
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Re: International insurance for Swedish boat

I don't think my is worth more than 400 000 SEK.
> (so about 48,000 US, right?) That's not a problem .


my boat is 33.
>Still not a problem, but you'll need a recent hauled Condition & Valuation survey.

I'm the only permanent member onboard. I will try to have friends and paying crew on the longer passages, but it would be nice with an insurance that also will cover sailing alone if that will be necessary. Sailing single handed along the coast is necessary.
> Still not a problem if you can get crew for any passages over 250nm from land and you have adequate boating experience


It would be good to have an insurance with coverage for loss of my own boat, but it is the liability insurance that is most important.
> P&I Liability (also called third party liability) coverage for any damages caused as a result of the operation of the vessel is not a problem as long as you have adequate boating experience


for Insurance of the crew for health care and transportation to land would be nice too (cheaper health insurance).
> The transportation coverage is called emergency evacuation insurance, and is a separate policy from your marine insurance. The "medical" coverage on your marine policy will cover accidental injuries to your crew while on board your vessel, but it is not a substitute for ongoing health care and preventative maintenance health insurance. I would expect that your crew would still have health insurance in their home country, but probably not emergency evacuation coverage. There are a number of companies that offer the latter. A popular one is DAN https://danboater.org/medical-evacuation.html#benefit-2 but a google search for "emergency Medical Evacuation for boaters" will return many results.
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