Insurance Requiring Professional Fire Extinguisher Installation

[brajgreg]

I'm trying to get insurance on a boat. One underwriter declined to insure us so we are onto the next policy that costs merely twice as much. During survey, the surveyor found -- I know you'll be shocked by this -- expired fire extinguishers on a 30 year old boat. So my plan is to head over to West Marine or somewhere and buy some new ones and throw out the old ones.

I am not allowed to go buy new fire extinguishers and put them on my boat unless I have express written consent...

Does anyone else deal with this stuff from their insurer?

How many of you are getting your fire extinguishers inspected by a "duly licensed and qualified individual whose principal business is the installation, maintenance, certification, tagging, weighing, and recharging of such systems?"

Here is the wording for that process, which was specifically pointed to by the underwriter, when saying they'll require new fire extinguishers:

If the Scheduled Vessel is fitted with fire extinguishing equipment, then it is warranted that:

• All fire extinguishing equipment is properly installed and is maintained in good working order.
• All fire extinguishing equipment is tagged and certified annually or in accordance with the
• manufacturer’s recommendations, whichever is more frequent.
• The tanks of such equipment are weighed annually or in accordance with the manufacturer’s
• recommendations, whichever is more frequent.
• The tanks are recharged as necessary.

For purposes of complying with this warranty, all installation, maintenance, certification, tagging, weighing, and recharging must be conducted by a duly licensed and qualified individual whose principal business is the installation, maintenance, certification, tagging, weighing, and recharging of such systems. Such individual may not be the insured, a Covered Person or any named operator, unless expressly approved by us in writing.

[5BTM]

What is your location?

All portable fire extinguishers are supposed to be installed and tested according to NFPA 10 standard.

Take it to a licensed company in your area, show them a picture of the installation and have them put a tag on it.

Lucky for me I have my 13.2, 13.3 and 13.4 licenses in the province of Quebec;
central fire alarms, permanent and portable fire extinguishing system.


https://uscgboating.org/library/fire...ec-Boaters.pdf

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...2021-22578.pdf

[Brioche]

I don't know about this on boats but on a building we own with a restaurant we are required to use licensed service for fire extinguisher inspection and maintenance. Check yellow pages under something like fire extinguishers or restaurant hoods or Ansel systems. They usually check extinguishers and top them off if they are old - don't have to buy new ones. For us, they come to the building since they also inspect the fire hood system, but I am sure you could just bring the extinguishers by the store. Oddly enough, the service we use also makes awnings and biminis! We are required by insurer to have contract in place for routine inspections - it varies 6 months or yearly.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by brajgreg

Does anyone else deal with this stuff from their insurer?

Not for ordinary recreational boats boats. It's common language for commercial/industrial risks of any kind.


There are fire extinguisher service places that do this for a living. It is not particularly expensive to have them come out and tag everything and typically the costs per extinguisher are token ($5-$10) if you bring the extinguisher to them. That may be the best way forward for you, if that is the best deal you can get on insurance.

[boatpoker]

1.Your fire fighting system comprises of one or two "portable" extinguishers.
Ask the underwriter if they mean those too.

2. Ask the surveyor to update his report and include the new extinguishers

[sv_pelagia]

Here in Canada, it's a Transport Canada requirement to have up-to-date extinguishers.

For our moorage contract, we have to do this annually. But everyone does it on the same weekend and the fire extinguisher folks come out to our docks and inspect and recertify for free. (BUT, they make their money when either the 5-yr maintenance or a new extinguisher is required.)

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Here in Canada, it's a Transport Canada requirement to have up-to-date extinguishers.

For our moorage contract, we have to do this annually. But everyone does it on the same weekend and the fire extinguisher folks come out to our docks and inspect and recertify for free. (BUT, they make their money when either the 5-yr maintenance or a new extinguisher is required.)

Recertification does not apply to pleasurecraft

You can read the entire legally required standard here ...
https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...2010-tp-1332-e

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Not for ordinary recreational boats boats. It's common language for commercial/industrial risks of any kind.
...

This^^^

Some companies treat all "vessels" the same. I bet their requirements are for commercial ships and they use the same rules for pleasure boats as well.

But you got some good ideas above on how to go about this.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Recertification does not apply to pleasurecraft

You can read the entire legally required standard here ...
https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...2010-tp-1332-e

Boatpoker: when I wrote post, I KNEW you would reply as such. That's why I didn't write "annually certified". As a surveyor, you know the minimum regulations - - your response is thus appreciated.

Practically, one's fire extinguishers need to be working....

According to the TC Safe Boating Guide:
All safety equipment on board must be:
• in good working order;
• always easy to reach (so that it can be used in an emergency); and
• maintained and replaced in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations.

To me that means regularly checked and hydrostatic tests performed.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...-extinguishers
A hydrostatic test should be performed:

- every 12 years for pressure type extinguishers

- every 5 years for carbon dioxide and water extinguishers

- after discharge for any extinguisher 5 years old or older


Nothing implied about any need for a "fixed" fire extinguishing system.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Boatpoker: when I wrote post, I KNEW you would reply as such. That's why I didn't write "annually certified". As a surveyor, you know the minimum regulations - - your response is thus appreciated.

Practically, one's fire extinguishers need to be working....

According to the TC Safe Boating Guide:
All safety equipment on board must be:
• in good working order;
• always easy to reach (so that it can be used in an emergency); and
• maintained and replaced in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations.

To me that means regularly checked and hydrostatic tests performed.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...-extinguishers
A hydrostatic test should be performed:

- every 12 years for pressure type extinguishers

- every 5 years for carbon dioxide and water extinguishers

- after discharge for any extinguisher 5 years old or older


Nothing implied about any need for a "fixed" fire extinguishing system.

A lot of misinformation here. Thats why I linked the actual "law" in Canada. US law for pleasurecraft is even weaker.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

A lot of misinformation here. Thats why I linked the actual "law" in Canada. US law for pleasurecraft is even weaker.

None of it is "misinformation", given they are citations from TC sources.

How it is applied (or, perhaps, interpreted) is where the difference lies. Though authorities in Canada may not look for certification tags on extinguishers (rather, they just look for presence of appropriate number/type of extinguishers), the TC guide indicates they should be in good working order and maintained as per manufacturer.


The laws you linked to were not about required non-fixed safety equipment (such as liferings, buckets, extinguishers, etc).

[Jammer]

The situation in the USA has recently changed slightly. The rulemaking in the Federal Register is here:


https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...tional-vessels


The requirement is that extinguishers be maintained in good and serviceable working condition, which is further defined to include a requirement that the exinguisher is not expired and a bunch of obvious stuff like the pin being in place. There is no requirement for periodic inspection, regardless of whether the extinguisher is disposable or not.


Several sources have erroneously reported a requirement for inspection for non-disposable extinguishers. The Federal Register publication makes the situation clear.

[Overdue]

Yes, there are companies that charge about $10/ extinguisher if you bring it to them - they bench test it (maybe drain/refill?) and put a yellow tag, dated, good for one year.

In this area (PA. NJ) , when real estate is sold, local municipal ordinances usually require an inspection by the local code inspector, and there needs to be currently inspected extinguishers to get a Certificate Of Occupancy / clearance to sell the property. They have even expanded the number and type of smoke/CO detectors (10 year battery, every bedroom, etc.).

The same standards usually apply if an owner wants to rent residential real estate.

Considering the close quarters on boats, and presence of propane/gas/diesel, I guess it is not surprising that insurers ask for this.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

None of it is "misinformation", given they are citations from TC sources.

How it is applied (or, perhaps, interpreted) is where the difference lies. Though authorities in Canada may not look for certification tags on extinguishers (rather, they just look for presence of appropriate number/type of extinguishers), the TC guide indicates they should be in good working order and maintained as per manufacturer.


The laws you linked to were not about required non-fixed safety equipment (such as liferings, buckets, extinguishers, etc).

I linked the "only" law. If you have another law please provide a link.

[deblen]

There are 2 "requirements" being discussed in many of the above posts:


1.Individual insurance co. requirements-what is required by an insurance co. has nothing to do with the law.Insurance Co.s don't have to insure you for any reason they decide on.


2.Can/US/your country law/-these laws usually state the minimum safety/fire/etc. eqpt. required by law,in order to legally operate a vessel registered in that country,& has nothing to do with insurance.


I believe the OP was describing a problem with an individual insurance co.
I believe that Ins co. can demand any "requirement" that they wish.I don't believe they are regulated by law regarding their company requirements.


Something that should be regulated by law,IMHO,is the minimum coverage details in plain language,similar to Can. Provinces SPF 1 auto insurance.
Example Alberta :https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/2df2...cy-2021-05.pdf

Cheers/Len