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Old 09-12-2016, 03:19   #61
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Guys
I would not be too concerned with the look of the engine too much. Leaking gasket could be responsible for the rust on the pulleys. My own engine looked worse when I bought my boat. 25 year old 12 hp Kubota with a Diacom marine conversion. Mechanic told me that it looked beyond fixing. Asked him to replace all liquids and check valves etc. Two days later he rang and told me that it was a cracker. Since I have got rid of the rust on the pulleys and cleaned and painted the bilge.
Two weekends ago got caught in nasty seas off Sydney and motor sailed for four hours. Engine runs like a top. If I could figure out how to post photos I would show the before and after. Still looks a little rustic but 18 months after giving it some love it is still running like a well oiled machine.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:52   #62
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
I'm sure the engine meets your standards. By the way, the giveaway that the WHITE wire is ROMEX is not that it's white but because of the kinks and twists in it that are set in place by the stiff unstranded conductors. The lack of labeling is also a clue..
My standards have nothing to do with it, in question is your apparently limitless ability (and propensity) to make unfounded assumptions...

Same resources as you.




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Here is the listing if anyone is interested. 1987 Cape Dory Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Glad you could provide something other than your feelings to the conversation. Given what the boat is, I doubt very seriously that it ever sank or has a piece of romex on it. That being said, after seeing those pictures, but not actually seeing it in person, if everything is kosher, an offer of around 15-18 might be OK. Depends on what the condition truly is....

Didn't have any white boat cable here, it's at the boat, but the pictures below make the point just as well. Since it's gray and kinked, I guess the wire shown is UF-B (essentially single strand, buriable romex), or, as you put it, 'because of the kinks and twists in it that are set in place by the stiff unstranded conductors'. Oh wait, look at the stripped ends! It's actually stranded boat cable, though untinned, and with no labeling either (at least that's visible in the picture, because it's embossed into the gray outer jacket)...
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:07   #63
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Quote: " If a rebuild costs $5,000 & a new motor costs $9,000 the net difference in price is not $4,000 because the repowered boat will be worth more than the boat with the 30 year old rebuilt motor. If the repowered boat is worth $2,000 more the additional cost of the new engine would have been $2,000. But for that $2,000 the owner gets to enjoy a boat with a new, quieter, more efficient & reliable motor with a warranty. Trust me, I'm as frugal as the next guy but when it comes to boats the cheapest route is not always the best way to go."

PreCISEly!

If this boat is in other respects worth what is being asked for it, then is a re-power proposition.

You'd need to have this old engine out of the engine compartment in any event to tidy up/repair/update all the ancillaries in order to get any kind of reliability. A major part of the cost of a re-power job is in the labour to re'n're. A brand new Beta20 right outta the box is (Can)$9K, a Beta25 about Can$11K.

Scout30 has it completely right.

IMO ALL money put into an old boat should be considered "sunk cost", so if you want the boat (which perhaps you shouldn't for other reasons) then just re-power and have it done with. Unless you can walk away from the entire "investment" with a smile on your face, you shouldn't be a boat owner!

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Old 09-12-2016, 08:17   #64
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

While the engine may start, I'd be shocked if that alternator was still good, just looking at it.

If the boat has been sitting at a mooring for five years there's going to be a lot more than the engine to worry about. I would bet that all the brightwork is shot, the deck is probably chalked and absorbing moisture and who knows what the bottom looks like.

I think it's worth way less than the listed price based on that one picture and little bit of it's history alone. It's a money pit.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:18   #65
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Here is the listing if anyone is interested. 1987 Cape Dory Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Well the other photos leave a significantly better impression.

Often, if the engine compartment looks unmaintained, it may be indicative of the general maintenance performed, before the clean up to sell.

The poor DIY wiring is another "red flag". And the dinette table. If someone took good care of their Cape Dory, they wouldn't let the table get like that.

Notwithstanding, based on the pedigree, it may be worth a look see.

As another poster indicated, you may be able to find a used engine if needed. A boat of this vintage normally comes with the original (used) engine so it doesn't necessarily have to be new. However, if that engine is shot, and you can't find a good used engine in a reasonable period of time, you may be in for a big expense.

We took a Douglas 32 (very similar boat) that was much better cared for, and will still have put over $35,000 parts and $50,000 my labour into repairs and improvements over 8 years, and still have a fair bit to go.

Fortunately, we found a great little used engine that we are swapping out right now, else it would have been $10,000 more in parts.

That being said, one can buy a used boat and sail it as is, repairing only the stuff that absolutely must be repaired to keep it safe, or one can try to bring the vessel back to original (or better) condition. The cost difference is quite significant.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:24   #66
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

After reviewing the pics this boat does not look like it's been sunk. No stains or delamination of the wood & the old cushions are still there. Finding out that the engine is a marinized Kubota is also a good sign because you can use tractor engine parts for a rebuild assuming you can find parts for this engine which is 30+/- years old. However, I'd be surprised if you couldn't. Still an expensive proposition but nowhere near what rebuilding a Volvo or Yanmar would be. Still, for the purposes of negotiation, I'd approach this as a boat that needs a repower. Be sure & thoroughly check out the sails too as that is another major expense.

One thing for the OP to keep in mind is that the rest of us are on the mainland so we don't know what the used boat market is like in Hawaii. I actually grew up there, Punahou alum, and as I recall there weren't a lot of boats for sale. Certainly nothing like Florida where they're a dime a dozen so supply & demand will affect what you should offer.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:30   #67
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

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Old 09-12-2016, 10:16   #68
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

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Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
After reviewing the pics this boat does not look like it's been sunk. No stains or delamination of the wood & the old cushions are still there. Finding out that the engine is a marinized Kubota is also a good sign because you can use tractor engine parts for a rebuild assuming you can find parts for this engine which is 30+/- years old. However, I'd be surprised if you couldn't. Still an expensive proposition but nowhere near what rebuilding a Volvo or Yanmar would be. Still, for the purposes of negotiation, I'd approach this as a boat that needs a repower. Be sure & thoroughly check out the sails too as that is another major expense.

One thing for the OP to keep in mind is that the rest of us are on the mainland so we don't know what the used boat market is like in Hawaii.

I actually grew up there, Punahou alum, and as I recall there weren't a lot of boats for sale. Certainly nothing like Florida where they're a dime a dozen so supply & demand will affect what you should offer.
SCOUT30 raises a very good point.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:38   #69
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Given the poor overall appearance, poor workmanship, improvised parts usage, owners claims, etc I wouldn't even bother looking at it in person. With an asking price of $29K the owner may need a few years to come to grips with reality.

The biggest mistake I see is people making is thinking "I can fix that myself" and not including a price for their time in doing so. If your time is worthless that's fine but if not don't forget to include it also.

Disclosure: I have no interest in the boat, financial or otherwise.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:56   #70
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Given the poor overall appearance, poor workmanship, improvised parts usage, owners claims, etc I wouldn't even bother looking at it in person. With an asking price of $29K the owner may need a few years to come to grips with reality.

The biggest mistake I see is people making is thinking "I can fix that myself" and not including a price for their time in doing so. If your time is worthless that's fine but if not don't forget to include it also.

Disclosure: I have no interest in the boat, financial or otherwise.
That and maybe a matter of ego about the ability to fix it? Some can and some think they can.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:16   #71
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Given the poor overall appearance, poor workmanship, improvised parts usage, owners claims, etc I wouldn't even bother looking at it in person. With an asking price of $29K the owner may need a few years to come to grips with reality.

The biggest mistake I see is people making is thinking "I can fix that myself" and not including a price for their time in doing so. If your time is worthless that's fine but if not don't forget to include it also.

Disclosure: I have no interest in the boat, financial or otherwise.
We're all just going off pictures & the only real way to know the condition of this boat is to thoroughly inspect her in person. Cape Dorys are good looking well made boats with a reputation for being seaworthy & they typically hold their value quite well. My opinion is the boat looks like it's in pretty average condition, except the motor, & is worth pursuing. This is a distress sale & the owner may be very flexible. If you can get this for between $15 & $20k you might have yourself a really good deal here. I think the most important question is do you love this boat? You'd better because buying the boat is the cheap part.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:43   #72
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

Pedigree aside, it comes down to three things for a 30 year old boat. Condition, condition, and condition. For me it fails all criteria.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:32   #73
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

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Pedigree aside, it comes down to three things for a 30 year old boat. Condition, condition, and condition. For me it fails all criteria.
If you expect a 30 year old boat of this pedigree, to be in perfect condition, and listed for $30K, you're dreaming.

If everything was perfect, great hull and decks, recent repower, new electronics, and new sails, listed for $80K, sell for $60K wouldn't be out of the question.

That boat looks to be in decent overall condition for listing price (as far as one can tell from an internet listing). The motor appearance is ghastly, and needs to be carefully examined, (as does every part of every boat under consideration).
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Old 13-12-2016, 16:04   #74
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

The part that bothers me is the pulleys are rusted where the belt runs. If you ran the engine that rust would soon be gone. Like 20 min. So that means that motor has not been run for probably 6 months to a year, maybe longer, to accumulate that much rust on the insides of the pulleys. Haven't heard anything about the engine control cables, transmission, bearings, stuffing box, prop., bottom job, motor mounts, fuel filters and yes that alternator is shot, and on and on.

It all adds up pretty fast.

29 k , no way.
As everyone else has said. 15k and be ready to spend another 15 to 20k on making it seaworthy. If you can find a reasonable marina with reasonable rates and .... yep, on and on.
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Old 13-12-2016, 17:37   #75
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Re: How bad does this engine look?

In my book it looks like (censored). But at times even such things can be restored and revived.

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