Going Uninsured !?

[Paul L]

I don't understand all the uproar about not being insured, as if it was a personal affront to everyone who is insured. If you cruise outside the 1st world countries you will be surrounded in anchorages and offshore with uninsured fishing and commercial boats. And these boats will know the local legal system far better than you and probably have much worse anchoring gear than you. This is just another risk that you take on. Uncomfortable with the risk, then you get insurance for your boat to 'share' the risk among the insurance pool. That is what insurance is for -- covering risks that you do not want to personally own.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Triton318

Can you please explain what you mean by "unlicensed"? Also, my boat is USCG documented, not registered. How does being registered make you less of a navigation hazard? And what exactly do you mean by "unsurveyed"? Are you suggesting that no one should operate a boat unless it has been surveyed by a licensed marine surveyor?

A survey is a guarantee of very little. Most surveeyors no longer go up masts, so my MAJOR forestay damage from a halyard wrap was not spotted at the survey.

Fortunately it was spotted before the mast came down.

I think someone who has an undocumented, unregistered boat *and who maintains it poorly* is a hazard to nearby boats. We had a typical spring storm here last April and eight anchored-out boats ended up aground just in one small area. One owner who maintained his boat, had it properly moored, etc., got hit by a poorly maintained boat. Another one had been out there slowly sinking from accumulating rain water. The mast was long gone, the boat nearly stripped, and it was a smelly, stinky, barely-floating bird sanctuary. His three ply anchor rode was worn down to one strand BEFORE the storm and he had been told. The more responsible owners out there were just lucky that their boats didn't get bashed by his as it broke free and was at the mercy of a severe storm.

Liability insurance would not have helped them. They needed comprehensive. I can understand why someone wouldn't have comprehensive, but liabitility just doesn't cost that much. I have comprehensive because it's my home, but I always had liability, even on my old (really old) boat.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by conachair

Quite a large proportion of bluewater sailors, especially off the beaten track.

Bluewater boats still have to come in occasionally, and just because they're "offf the beaten track" doesn't mean a crewmember can't be hurt on their boat -- say while helping the skipper do something diffiult, such as maintain control of the boat in a storm.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by vcsmithuk

Licensed (i.e. formal sailing qualifications for skipper and crew) + registered + 4 Atlantic crossings by skipper and 30 years experience + full and recent survey which confirmed boat was sound + brand new rigging + full restoration / refit by professional shipright BUT no one will provide insurance because boat too old / too small / not worth enough money = what? What else should you do in this case? Buy a different boat?!?!

What if you WANT insurance but no-one will give it to you? Even 3rd party? Do you not sail beyond your club moorings because it's "irresponsible"? Should we let insurance companies tell us what sort of boat is "appropriate" for cruising? What a crazy world that would be....

You may not be able to get comprehensive, but if the boat isn't worth much, you don't need it. What you need is liability insurance, and you can get that.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Bluewater boats still have to come in occasionally, and just because they're "offf the beaten track" doesn't mean a crewmember can't be hurt on their boat -- say while helping the skipper do something diffiult, such as maintain control of the boat in a storm.

Come into where? Read post 121. You're on your own, look after yourself and your boat. In many places no one is insured.

I've never read the fine print but does normal boat insurance cover personal injury accidents onboard? I always thought personal accident insurance was a seperate thing.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you cruise outside the 1st world countries you will be surrounded in anchorages and offshore with uninsured fishing and commercial boats. And these boats will know the local legal system far better than you and probably have much worse anchoring gear than you.

Hah, you're right about one thing regarding foreign ports; "these boats will know the local legal system". Chances are that if a local fishing boat drifts into you, it will be your fault regardless of the situation. Your first clue will be the local gendarme rapping on the side of your hull with a rifle butt because you've damaged his "brother in laws" boat and it's as if you're stealing food right of the kitchen table from his 9 starving children. Sometimes "local knowledge" bites you where the sun don't shine and locations south.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

... Freedom rightfully ends when it threatens the people around you.

Indeed!

"One person’s freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins."
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
Oliver W. Holmes

[Mike OReilly]

Insurance is about risk mitigation. In most places in the world, if you are unable (or unwilling) to take the risk, then you don't engage in the activity. In the rich western world we've found another way; we buy ourselves out of risk. This is called insurance.

The original form of insurance is, as was suggested, a group of people getting together to pool the risk. This form of insurance is now rare. Risk is now a commodity. It is the raw material for corporations whose only motivation is to maximize profit.

Profit is maximized by reducing expenses and increasing income. This is why insurance rates (almost) always go up, and why policy restrictions and limitations keep getting tighter -- not to mention the efforts insurance companies go to NOT paying on claims. This distorted system gets even worse when the power to make a personal risk assessment is taken away (i.e. when we are forced to buy insurance). It's why people rush to sue -- it's the logical conclusion of a distorted system.

Some (me included whenever the law allows) choose to actually assess the risk in a rational way, and make a choice about whether I can live with that risk. And yes, living with that risk means accepting the consequences. The real risks in most sailing activities are very small, and most of these can be mitigated by personal actions. Yes, sometimes sht happens. But life is a risk.

This demand we in the rich countries have for zero risk is, in my opinion, both unhealthy and ultimately futile. But it does make the insurance companies very happy -- and this too is no accident .

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed!

"One person’s freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins."
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
Oliver W. Holmes

"But it nonetheless makes sense in learning how to duck"
David_Old_Jersey

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by conachair

Come into where? Read post 121. You're on your own, look after yourself and your boat. In many places no one is insured.

I've never read the fine print but does normal boat insurance cover personal injury accidents onboard? I always thought personal accident insurance was a seperate thing.

Mine covers personal injury.

i would like to know how many sailors stay at sea (and away from the coast, where other boats might be), never have anyone else on their boat who might need to be protected by insurance, and never come into a marina, dock, or other land location to get food, water and other supplies. I would be fascinated to hear that. The only account I have ever heard of a boat that self-sufficient was in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and that was science fiction.

A person may well choose to go uninsured, but if I break a leg on your boat as we work through a storm, I want to see your insurance. That's what it's for. Of course in England you have medical coverage, so Americans will have different concerns.

That might be why you haven't seen policies with it.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Insurance is about risk mitigation. In most places in the world, if you are unable (or unwilling) to take the risk, then you don't engage in the activity. In the rich western world we've found another way; we buy ourselves out of risk. This is called insurance.

The original form of insurance is, as was suggested, a group of people getting together to pool the risk. This form of insurance is now rare. Risk is now a commodity. It is the raw material for corporations whose only motivation is to maximize profit.

Profit is maximized by reducing expenses and increasing income. This is why insurance rates (almost) always go up, and why policy restrictions and limitations keep getting tighter -- not to mention the efforts insurance companies go to NOT paying on claims. This distorted system gets even worse when the power to make a personal risk assessment is taken away (i.e. when we are forced to buy insurance). It's why people rush to sue -- it's the logical conclusion of a distorted system.

Some (me included whenever the law allows) choose to actually assess the risk in a rational way, and make a choice about whether I can live with that risk. And yes, living with that risk means accepting the consequences. The real risks in most sailing activities are very small, and most of these can be mitigated by personal actions. Yes, sometimes sht happens. But life is a risk.

This demand we in the rich countries have for zero risk is, in my opinion, both unhealthy and ultimately futile. But it does make the insurance companies very happy -- and this too is no accident .

Did someone here demand zero risk? I agree that it's not the right way to look at insurance, but I haven't seen that argued here. I think insurance should be there to mitigate MAJOR liability -- someone injured on my boat is my biggest concern, followed by loss of my boat, since it is my home. So I have both liability and comprehensive. I'm not willing to put my retirement funds at risk, so it's financial protection for me.

The less you have to lose, the less you need liability insurance to protect yourself, but I still wouldn't have anyone else on my boat without it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

i would like to know how many sailors stay at sea (and away from the coast, where other boats might be), never have anyone else on their boat who might need to be protected by insurance, and never come into a marina, dock, or other land location to get food, water and other supplies. I would be fascinated to hear that.

This illustrates my point exactly (not to pick on you Rak ). The fact that there is some risk, does not equate to one must have insurance to reduce risk to zero. This is crazy. It's impossible to reduce risk to zero, so it's a race that never ends -- which is exactly what insurance companies want.

If you actually assess the risk of the things you've just outlined, I think most rational people will conclude that in most cases, the risks are quite low.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Did someone here demand zero risk?

Insurance is about reducing risk to zero, or to the limit of your policy (minus the deductible I suppose) in the areas you choose to insure.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I'm not willing to put my retirement funds at risk, so it's financial protection for me.

Exactly. You have made that assessment. Good for you. That's fine. Just don't force your assessment on me, because personally my assessment would be you are flushing your money away on a risk that is very low (unless you are saying you are a negligent boat owner.

Your comments really illustrate the problem with insurance; it is driven by fear (irrational fear in most cases). What's the real risk of someone being injured on your boat? Again, unless you are negligent or simply a bad skipper (neither of which I would assume), your risk is very low.

If retirement money is your real worry then I would suggest you would do better to take your insurance money and put it into your retirement nest egg. It will build faster that way.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

A person may well choose to go uninsured, but if I break a leg on your boat as we work through a storm, I want to see your insurance. That's what it's for. Of course in England you have medical coverage, so Americans will have different concerns.

If I knew beforehand that was your intention / attitude (not saying right or wrong - I don't do those ) you would not be on my boat (at least not without your own insurance). If I knew that during the event - you likely wouldn't be either. It's called risk management.



*the word "likely" added for legal reasons

[sailorboy1]

I "jokingly" tell guests when explaining the standing rules to bay attention because they don't want them to get hurt, because then I would have to kill them as I have decided it is less expensive to kill someone on the boat than let them get hurt