Going Uninsured !?

[vcsmithuk]

What if you just can't get insurance because your boat is too old or too small or not worth enough money and "you couldn't possibly cross an ocean in a boat like that"? Even though you've invested a small fortune in a refit and she's sounder than ever and you have every safety gadget under the sun on board. Do you not go cruising and just stay in the "safety" of the 12 mile limit (where frankly there's more to crash into)? And if a marina requires it, but there's nowhere to anchor as an alternative (even if the chart says there is!) what do you do? Catch 22.....

[sdowney717]

BoatUS: Marine Insurance - Policy Information
another reason to get liability insurance, oil spills could wipe you out.

Additional Fuel-Spill Liability
In addition to your policy’s standard liability coverage, this extra liability protection protects you from claims for clean-up or 3rd-party damage due to the accidental discharge of oil or fuel that can occur in a sinking, fire, collision, grounding, etc. This “green coverage” is crucial now that federal and state laws subject boaters to liability for cleanup, containment, and environmental damage.

[Mike OReilly]

Do you actually need 3rd party liability insurance to enter a marina for a short stay? Have you been asked to prove it by showing your insurance papers?

I've heard it said that some marinas demand that you have insurance to enter as a transient. But in my limited experience, I have never encountered even being asked.

[vcsmithuk]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Do you actually need 3rd party liability insurance to enter a marina for a short stay? Have you been asked to prove it by showing your insurance papers?

I've heard it said that some marinas demand that you have insurance to enter as a transient. But in my limited experience, I have never encountered even being asked.

Yes, in almost every marina we have been into in Europe in the last 3 months we have been asked for ships papers and insurance papers before anything else. Where we are now we tied up the first thing the guy who helped us in said was "as soon as you're ready, please bring your insurance to the office"!! (Note we didn't crash whilst mooring) So it's a difficult one, as in many of the places we've been there has been no anchoring option. You could argue that you could go somewhere else, but that isn't always that simple when there's a F7 gusting 8 following you in and the next port is 50 miles away....

[tsl]

Very interesting reading. I have a an older boat worth about $70,000. I insure it with my home, auto company. I'm good for the great lakes, coastal US.
I've had a claim. I could collect from the other party's insurance myself or pay the
deductible and let my insurance do it. I had my insurance collect. They hired the surveyors, got quotes ETC. They also collected my deductible. I'm happy with the service.
I pay about $200 per year. I'm a nobody to a marine insurer but my home town agent works pretty hard for me. I'm sure I'm missing something but without a law degree , I don't know what it is. I'm open to enlightenment.
I'm thinking boats valued at 100,000 and less may be better served by local insurance agents. Personal liability may often be a bigger issue than any physical damage.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by lateral

My boat was fully insured, basically to get in marinas, but as soon as I started the rebuild they didn't want to know. Apparently too many claims during rebuilds.
So I voted no insurance. I would have at least liability insurance on the water.

Its a scam alright. "Oh, but we provide a service." They are all over you like a rash
to sign you up & an a hint of a claim & out with the fine print. "Oh but you didn't have your rig certified every year, or your insurance is void if you sail closer than a mile from a lee shore."

Maybe you just need a different company? I know someone who lost his rig, and he was covered. I also know someone who anchored his boat off shore and swam in. Fell asleep on the beach and didn't notice the wind shift, turning his anchorage into a lee shore. Boat pounded in the surf and the keel came through the bottom, totaling the boat.

He was fully paid.

I've never had a claim. When I re-upped, Boat US notified me that for every year I went without a claim, my deductible would be reduced by 25% until it reached zero.

I'm certainly going to read my policy carefully as I've near heard of having one's rig certified (they did accept a marine survey where no one went up the mast, and it turned out that I had severe damage to my forestay that was not spotted in the survey), but the experiences of a couple of sailors I know suggest that maybe you should shop around.

[osirissail]

Folks in the USA don't have much experience with "liability only" insurance as it is a "new" product. Historically the only insurance for boats was patterned after automobile insurance and involved comprehensive, liability, and uninsured coverages.

Folks in other parts of the world had "liability only" (a.k.a., 3rd Party insurance) for a long time and are used to covering their older boats which were not worth enough to carry comprehensive coverage.

Now, marine insurance agents are offering "3rd Party Liability" insurance to US boats with enables a lot of formerly "un-insurable" boats to carry insurance.

Most marinas that I have been in from Trinidad all the way up the eastern Caribbean islands to the US Virgins/P.R. and coastal USA new ask on the registration form/paper to write in your "insurance company." Normally, nobody looks at that block of the form if you are only there for a day or so. However, for long term stays, I am often asked to bring in my "binder" and they make a copy for their "files." Lately, some east central Florida marinas are even setting a minimum coverage standard that is above the normal minimum you can purchase.

When and where you are "covered" is totally a matter of what is in the policy wording. It, on average, for coverage under your Auto or Home insurance type companies in the USA is the territorial waters of the USA with some extensions for east coast folks to include the Bahamas. So you have to read the policy closely.

International marine insurance covers virtually all the waters of the world with "hot spots" like Cuba, Columbia, etc., etc., not included unless you pay for a special "rider." Same with having the boat in "Tropical Storm" designated regions. Normally these are areas that your international marine insurance "drops dead" (stops coverage) during a designated part of the year. You can be there but your insurance coverage is null and void - or - a specially high deductible kicks into force.

Naturally if your boat is kept and used in "safe and secure" or non-dangerous parts of your home country the rates are going to be significantly less than those of folks with boats in "dangerous - weather and socially" - areas.

What is a pain is that there are actually very few reputable insurance companies writing global coverage so your choices and rates are not very good due to lack of competition. And - a major caveat - check out the outfits giving you really "good rates" as a lot of times they are not going to pay up if you have a loss.

[boatman61]

What he sed...
No Liability coverage in Europe... and many Atlantic/Carib Islands can get you run outa port...

[s/v Beth]

One thing that has not been brought up in this discussion is Self-insuring bond. My understanding with cars and trucks is that one if one can produce a "bond" that will cover the potential situation then that can act as insurance.
Well, what if we formed a company and each put in 1 grand. It would still be our money, but if it reached 1000 members then we would have 1 million for liability. After a couple of years it could start giving back to its owners (ie all of us) and we would save that 90% commission.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

One thing that has not been brought up in this discussion is Self-insuring bond. My understanding with cars and trucks is that one if one can produce a "bond" that will cover the potential situation then that can act as insurance.
Well, what if we formed a company and each put in 1 grand. It would still be our money, but if it reached 1000 members then we would have 1 million for liability. After a couple of years it could start giving back to its owners (ie all of us) and we would save that 90% commission.

Unless folk start making claims...........

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

One thing that has not been brought up in this discussion is Self-insuring bond. My understanding with cars and trucks is that one if one can produce a "bond" that will cover the potential situation then that can act as insurance.
Well, what if we formed a company and each put in 1 grand. It would still be our money, but if it reached 1000 members then we would have 1 million for liability. After a couple of years it could start giving back to its owners (ie all of us) and we would save that 90% commission.

What lawyer is going to write the policy and what would he get paid? It's not that EZ. There are expenses involved that suck up the monies. Handlers fees, paper work, research, claims personnel and logistics and so on..........

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

One thing that has not been brought up in this discussion is Self-insuring bond. My understanding with cars and trucks is that one if one can produce a "bond" that will cover the potential situation then that can act as insurance.
Well, what if we formed a company and each put in 1 grand. It would still be our money, but if it reached 1000 members then we would have 1 million for liability. After a couple of years it could start giving back to its owners (ie all of us) and we would save that 90% commission.

What a splendid idea...
obviously there'd be admin costs...
every grand buys an equal share in the Co-Op...
I vote Gord for CEO....

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What a splendid idea...
obviously there'd be admin costs...
every grand buys an equal share in the Co-Op...
I vote Gord for CEO....

I'm willing to hold the money

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I'm willing to hold the money

How bigs that tri your building...??


But as an aside... seeing as its we.. the members responsible for our 3rd parties we'd make damn sure all collisions we're in our favour... easy when being over taken...
Collect Free boats from the web for 'Disposal...' lol

[roverhi]

Insuring a boat for long range cruising is not easy to get, is expensive, and not available for single handers under any circumstances. You can get local area insurance, even if that local area is the West or East Coast of the US, at a pretty reasonable cost. The area of coverage is spelled out in the insurance and normally only covers to a certain number of miles offshore. You can either change the covered area with your current company or buy local insurance for a given area as you move about at reasonable cost. The only problem with this coverage, it's a cost problem, is coverage in hurricane prone areas. You'll be insured but may have to take a cost hit to be covered once you move your boat into such an area. Do not hide facts from the insurance company. If you are changing your area of use, tell them about it and pay the extra cost, if any. Don't assume you'll be covered if you sail into an hurricane area even if it is only for a short time. The easiest way for an insurance company to make a profit is to not pay a claim because you broke the contract by not telling them pertinant information.

The problem is insuring a boat for the trip in between the land masses if it involves blue water. I was insured on the West Coast and could get insurance in Hawaii but not for the waters in between. Tried to get the trip covered but as soon as they heard single handed, the insurance agents quit talking to me. Seems the magic number of crew is 3. Never got into any other requirements that they had because the conversation was dead for me when they required crew.

I used to have liability only coverage on my boat, a 41 year old Pearson sailboat for less than 1/2% of value. Because the value of the boat, felt comprehensive coverage was useless on a cost/benefit basis. Would not go without liability coverage, however. The cost of an accidental fuel spill, damaging someone else's property or someone being injured on my boat, was just too great to even think about. A simple clunk on the head by the boom could balloon into 6 figures or more with a greedy individual and disrepeputable, aren't they all but yours, attorney. Had a friend who had to suffer through such a suit who had a guest break his nose through sheer stupidity on the guests part.

On SF Bay, went with Boat US for the liability coverage. They required a current survey but I had a a purchase survey that sufficed and that was the only 'issue' they had. When I got ready to leave for Kona, got the rude awakening that Boat US didn't issue coverage in Hawaii so had to find another insurer. Did some research and got Hawaii coverage from Markel. They required a survey but accepted the, by then 3 years old, purchase survey. In talking with the agent, found I could get full coverage on the boat for a reasonable additional amount. Only wrinkle was they wanted an additional 'rig' survey to cover the mast and rigging. Bought the insurance and was covered as soon as I was X miles from Hilo. So now have full coverage for a little over 1 1/2% of value. Still haven't gotten a rig survey but will when I get close to a surveyor on Oahu. When I get around to taking the boat to the PNW, Markel will cover me when I get there. The age of the boat has never been an issue with any of the insurance agents I dealt with. Apparently they were happy as long as it passed survey.

Every where I've been, liability coverage has been required. No one except the State of Hawaii Boating Division has actually checked, however. All marinas required insurance and had a box on the slip application for the company name but just putting a name in the box sufficed. Will probably take a transient boat catching fire and taking other boats with it before the operators get diligent in asking for proof.

There is a name for Newt's idea, it's called a Mutual Insurance Company. There are a lot of them out there and some are really really big, just google for Mutual in the name. Still have all the 'Insurance Company" problems of costs, fraudualent and actual claim, and investing the member contributions for a profit.