Going Uninsured !?

[Ram]

There are 2 schools of thought here this is what my attorney said to me, he then said 1 get as much Insurance as you need/can afford or 2 get none at all
- if you do not want to pay a high price for insurance- form a company and put the vessel in it, if anyone gets hurt or killed all they can go after is the vessel and very few attorneys will sue you knowing the most they can get is your boat-

[familycruisers]

I need to decide full or liability. 120 for liability, 230 for full w/ survey. That can be done for 250 and is good for 5 yrs. I paid 1k for the boat, boated most my life, pretty sure any accident with another craft will be the other guys fault. So watcha think I should do?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This illustrates my point exactly (not to pick on you Rak ). The fact that there is some risk, does not equate to one must have insurance to reduce risk to zero. This is crazy. It's impossible to reduce risk to zero, so it's a race that never ends -- which is exactly what insurance companies want.

If you actually assess the risk of the things you've just outlined, I think most rational people will conclude that in most cases, the risks are quite low.

I know you're not picking on me Mike, but you missed my point. Since boats that never come in only exist in science fiction, this hypothetical completely uninsured person could come into a marina where I was tied up, uninsured, and have a catastrophic boat fire that spreads to my boat. It just happened here a month or so ago. HIS insurance should pay for my boat. If my insurance has to pay for my boat, my insurance goes up because he was uninsured.

What if I crewed on his boat and broke my leg? I have medicare, which covers 80% of most things. So I just have to pay the other 20% myself if he or his boat caused or contributed significantly to the accident.

So I asked, whose boat remains 200% out to sea? It isn't only about THAT person.

Liability insurance costs very little. It's the comprehensive that gets you. It's a simple gesture of persona financial responsibility. It's not a big deal. I know my marina does not require me to have comprehensive -- only liability.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Insurance is about reducing risk to zero, or to the limit of your policy (minus the deductible I suppose) in the areas you choose to insure.



Exactly. You have made that assessment. Good for you. That's fine. Just don't force your assessment on me, because personally my assessment would be you are flushing your money away on a risk that is very low (unless you are saying you are a negligent boat owner.

Your comments really illustrate the problem with insurance; it is driven by fear (irrational fear in most cases). What's the real risk of someone being injured on your boat? Again, unless you are negligent or simply a bad skipper (neither of which I would assume), your risk is very low.

If retirement money is your real worry then I would suggest you would do better to take your insurance money and put it into your retirement nest egg. It will build faster that way.

I strongly disagree that insurance *has* to be about reducing risk to zero. The closer one tries to get to that, the more they pay for their insurance, but it is a personal choice.

As someone else said, it's about mitigating risks. Wealthier people with lots of experience may well choose to have a larger deductible. In such a case their cost plummets again, but they still have their financial bases covered if their boat burns down to the waterline and takes mine with it. You don't have to be in a marina for that to happen -- embers can be carried by the wind. Far more likely, I think, is an injury for which the owner or skipper (insurance usually carried by owner, and usually they're the same people) is responsible in some way.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

If I knew beforehand that was your intention / attitude (not saying right or wrong - I don't do those ) you would not be on my boat (at least not without your own insurance). If I knew that during the event - you likely wouldn't be either. It's called risk management.



*the word "likely" added for legal reasons

I think it's quite reasonable under such circumstances for both parties to show their insurance, but if it's your fault I broke my leg -- for instance, if you left a tangled line on deck and then sent me forward in the dark -- you should be man enough to accept your responsibility.

I doubt you would do such a thing, but such things do happen ... maybe someone else would leave that tangled line in the dark, but you're the skipper and it's your boat.

I personally think it's irresponsible to bring one's boat into proximity with other boats without insurance. If you can't even afford liability insurance, you can't afford the boat. if you really think that insurance is a personal affront we probably wouldn't get along anyway.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I "jokingly" tell guests when explaining the standing rules to bay attention because they don't want them to get hurt, because then I would have to kill them as I have decided it is less expensive to kill someone on the boat than let them get hurt

A little humor always helps, but what we do is inherently dangerous, and you do need people who pay attention. I had someone on my boat used to smaller boats. When I had to reposition my boat while pulling it out of the slip, she decided to "help" by grabbing a line running along the pilings. She seemed to think she could pull my big boat back in the slip -- while I was in reverse.

I HOPE she would have let go before being pulled overboard but she was just used to bigger boats.

If she had, who would be responsible? I didn't specifically tell her not to grab and pull on a piling line while the boat was in reverse, but I did choose to have an inexperienced person on my boat ...

Oh BTW I HAD told her "Don't try to help take the boat out. I do this by myself ..." but her impulse was to help -- against instructions. She's just very, very used to much smaller boats (dinghies, sunfish, etc.)

[atoll]

personally,i've allways belived in asking my crew to fillin an indemnity form,that i accept no responsability for their actions on the boat due to their own stupidity....extrem sports call for extreme measures............

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by familycruisers

I need to decide full or liability. 120 for liability, 230 for full w/ survey. That can be done for 250 and is good for 5 yrs. I paid 1k for the boat, boated most my life, pretty sure any accident with another craft will be the other guys fault. So watcha think I should do?

Liability only. My boat is worth about $15k. I would never comprehensively insure against its loss.

The discussion of risk is a little off target IMO. You don't eliminate any event risk with insurance. You reduce financial exposure to the event risk.

In asessing event risk you have to identify the risks and then evaulate your exposure to them. The number one loss of boats is fire. You can reduce exposure to your boat catching fire to a point. Then you live with the event risk. I would say the probability of an onboard fire is the same whether at hook (isolated from others) or at a dock where your boat fire could ignite a neighbor boat or do significant damage to the marina. Probability of fire at dock could be slightly higher asnyou now involve your shore power plugs and equipment.

So if I dock in a Marina for 2 days once a month for provisioning I am looking at 48 days a year that I could affect another boat. I may assume that risk and carry no liability. The "minor" risks of entering marinas include losing power and banging somone's boat, someone slipping and falling getting on or off my boat. These types of situations usually end with a handshake and maybe some cash changing hands. No one wants to get the insurance companies involved, that's also why as high a deductible as you can tolerate is appropriate. $2,000? If you feel you'd rather fork over 2 grand anything happened it is not an unreasonable deductible.

If I spent a significant amount of time in crowded anchorages or marinas I would definitely carry liability insurance.

For those that don't have liability insurance - what will you really say to me if you 40klb boat loses power entering the marina and your bow sprit goes through the side of my coach roof and into my salon?

And you cant say that you are sucha superior sailor that it won't happen. If the idea that you lose control of your boat is impossible to admit, how about you go to town for tacos, a wire chafes and your boat catches fire, catches the dock on fire and then catches my boat on fire.

What will you tell me? "sorry, I hate insurance comanies and so I said screw them. I also am a budget sailor and don't have $10,000 to fix your boat. You should have comprehensive insurance if you want your boat fixed.?"

Maybe there should be a nautical flag carried port side that says, "not insured.". That would at least help me evaluate if I wanted to be near you in a marina or anchorage and help me manage my financial risks. I kind of like that idea.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by atoll

personally,i've allways belived in asking my crew to fillin an indemnity form,that i accept no responsability for their actions on the boat due to their own stupidity....extrem sports call for extreme measures............

It won't hold up in a US court. You can't be made to sign your rights away. I think you could ask them to sign a form that they agree that what they are doing is inherently dangerous and that they choose to do it anyway.

[MacG]

I am fully insured at acceptable cost. Even my Zodiac plus engine is insured against replacement value. The engine of my boat is 400 hrs from new and she had a recent hull survey with a new inside epoxycoating. There is a special amount reserved for personal stuff and electronics/gear.
Quite satisfied with the arrangement.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by familycruisers

I need to decide full or liability. 120 for liability, 230 for full w/ survey. That can be done for 250 and is good for 5 yrs. I paid 1k for the boat, boated most my life, pretty sure any accident with another craft will be the other guys fault. So watcha think I should do?

I can't tell you what to do for the insurance, but I think a survey is a good idea .... but I don't know how you're going to get a good survey for $250. I'm jealous!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Liability only. My boat is worth about $15k. I would never comprehensively insure against its loss.

The discussion of risk is a little off target IMO. You don't eliminate any event risk with insurance. You reduce financial exposure to the event risk.

In asessing event risk you have to identify the risks and then evaulate your exposure to them. The number one loss of boats is fire. You can reduce exposure to your boat catching fire to a point. Then you live with the event risk. I would say the probability of an onboard fire is the same whether at hook (isolated from others) or at a dock where your boat fire could ignite a neighbor boat or do significant damage to the marina. Probability of fire at dock could be slightly higher asnyou now involve your shore power plugs and equipment.

So if I dock in a Marina for 2 days once a month for provisioning I am looking at 48 days a year that I could affect another boat. I may assume that risk and carry no liability. The "minor" risks of entering marinas include losing power and banging somone's boat, someone slipping and falling getting on or off my boat. These types of situations usually end with a handshake and maybe some cash changing hands. No one wants to get the insurance companies involved, that's also why as high a deductible as you can tolerate is appropriate. $2,000? If you feel you'd rather fork over 2 grand anything happened it is not an unreasonable deductible.

If I spent a significant amount of time in crowded anchorages or marinas I would definitely carry liability insurance.

For those that don't have liability insurance - what will you really say to me if you 40klb boat loses power entering the marina and your bow sprit goes through the side of my coach roof and into my salon?

And you cant say that you are sucha superior sailor that it won't happen. If the idea that you lose control of your boat is impossible to admit, how about you go to town for tacos, a wire chafes and your boat catches fire, catches the dock on fire and then catches my boat on fire.

What will you tell me? "sorry, I hate insurance comanies and so I said screw them. I also am a budget sailor and don't have $10,000 to fix your boat. You should have comprehensive insurance if you want your boat fixed.?"

Maybe there should be a nautical flag carried port side that says, "not insured.". That would at least help me evaluate if I wanted to be near you in a marina or anchorage and help me manage my financial risks. I kind of like that idea.

EXACTLY. No one is THAT good, and one can't count on luck.

[donradcliffe]

+1 on insurance is a scam--there are only a few marine insurance companies around, and they sit around every week having coffee together and deciding how to screw their clients.

Everyone has to make an individual decision on carrying insurance. Its a matter of how much of cost versus benefits. I have been quoted anywhere from 0.5% to 4% of agreed value for insurance on the same boat. The companies that offered 0.5% were not losing money, and those that wanted 4% were trying to rip me off. Its easy to justify liability coverage when you are sailing locally and its $100-200 per year. Its not so easy when you are sailing to 10 countries per year and the cost is $1500 to $2000 per year. If you restricted your poll to bluewater sailors, you would find the majority aren't insuring, because the cost/benefit ratio is through the roof.

No matter what restrictions you try to meet, your insurance company will add some more in at the last minute, so they can deny your claims. We had 3 people aboard, they demanded 4--its the kind of people they are., I couldn't get any coverage in Thailand, which is one of the cheapest places in the world to repair boats.

If you are going to cruise, you are going to take some risks--storms, crowded anchorages, pirates, unlit fishing boats, corrupt officials, AND going without insurance. If you can't handle some risk, stay home.

What really PO's me is the shills for the insurance companies who say "you MUST have liability insurance" (no matter what the cost). If you are worried about uninsured boaters, then get uninsured boater insurance and stop whining. In 50 years of boating, I've been hit several times by boats which didn't even stop to leave a note, regardless of whether they had insurance or not.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

It won't hold up in a US court. You can't be made to sign your rights away. I think you could ask them to sign a form that they agree that what they are doing is inherently dangerous and that they choose to do it anyway.

i hold liability 3rd party insurance on all my boats but in reality think the paper it is written on is worth more!!

at,£60,£90 and £150 a year for my 3 boats i think the insurance companies are running the biggest con ever,next to the banks,as far as i can see most boats never move!!! and being liable for dock workers and pedestrians,maybe they should be forced to carry 3rd party for leaving the house...........
then we might see a change in the world.....lol

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by atoll

personally,i've allways belived in asking my crew to fillin an indemnity form,that i accept no responsability for their actions on the boat due to their own stupidity....extrem sports call for extreme measures............

Here's a sample form to start with.