Experience (and proof) for insurance?

[Siberian Sea]

I was just trying to say that there are some people whom in places like Australia for example that when you arrive there after having sailed for two years throughout and across the Pacific Ocean want to see your certificate of competence. For me isn’t the fact that somehow you have managed to get your vessel this far good enough? It’s just my opinion but I think these papers are overrated. Buy your boat, and if your somewhat responsible and level headed take it slow and relax. Your going to be just fine. These insurance companies are just in the business to increase their profit margins no matter the ridiculous burden they place on the public. Somehow the world had managed to move forward and mankind evolved without their intervention but today they are in most every aspect of out lives to the point we have become forbidden or frightened to even have fun with their permission.

[Snore]

Ray-

The best way to learn how to handle a boat is not to "just do it"!! That is a great way to damage the boat and loose confidence.

The best way to learn is to hire an instructor who is qualified through ASA or US Sailing. Have him/her aboard for a day. You just spent somewhere between $25 and $200K for a boat, why not get good instruction?

Regarding experience, if it is a big jump up in size- some firms require a UISCG Master to sign off that you can handle the boat. Something that the person you hire to instruct you can do.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Siberian Sea

I was just trying to say that there are some people whom in places like Australia for example that when you arrive there after having sailed for two years throughout and across the Pacific Ocean want to see your certificate of competence. For me isn’t the fact that somehow you have managed to get your vessel this far good enough? It’s just my opinion but I think these papers are overrated. Buy your boat, and if your somewhat responsible and level headed take it slow and relax. Your going to be just fine. These insurance companies are just in the business to increase their profit margins no matter the ridiculous burden they place on the public. Somehow the world had managed to move forward and mankind evolved without their intervention but today they are in most every aspect of out lives to the point we have become forbidden or frightened to even have fun with their permission.

I think maybe they want your proof of competence more for Insurance security than anything else..
Insuring a boat is one thing.. but it being operated by an owner with no proof of competence is a great cop out for the Insurance company.. no obligation to settle as you are not in compliance with the rules of the country.

Folks say they have never been asked for their qualifications so don't need them.. however I have seen it happen and your boat is forbidden leaving till you either get qualified or, a skipper who is.
What is legally okay in your country matters not.. your in their country where it does.. Basic.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Siberian Sea

I was just trying to say that there are some people whom in places like Australia for example that when you arrive there after having sailed for two years throughout and across the Pacific Ocean want to see your certificate of competence. For me isn’t the fact that somehow you have managed to get your vessel this far good enough? It’s just my opinion but I think these papers are overrated. Buy your boat, and if your somewhat responsible and level headed take it slow and relax. Your going to be just fine. These insurance companies are just in the business to increase their profit margins no matter the ridiculous burden they place on the public. Somehow the world had managed to move forward and mankind evolved without their intervention but today they are in most every aspect of out lives to the point we have become forbidden or frightened to even have fun with their permission.

Just wondering who these Australian some people are. No one asked me any questions about qualifications when clearing into Australia or for that matter any other country.

[TabbyCat]

Is there a point (measured in length, displacement, dollars, other) where an insurance company will ask for some documented form of experience before selling insurance to a new owner, or otherwise requiring a licensed captain be aboard for some period of time before I'm allowed on my own?

~ A jump in size of over 10' from your previous boat to the one you are purchasing is likely to cause the underwriter to ask questions.
~ If changing from power to sail or vice-versa, or mono to Cat, that can also generate a request for more details on your experience
~ Underwriters will often ask you to fill out a boating resume. It's up to you to list the boats you've owned or operated, where you've operated them, and for how long. Also list any courses that you've taken. They pretty much rely on your honesty when completing the sailing resume. If you fudge your resume to get insurance and later on have a claim, you can count on that claim being denied. If you think they won't find out, you'd be wrong.

[Finspeak]

I’m a retired marine insurance broker and know something about this. The key things are misrepresentation and non-disclosure. It’s part of the law of contract, and insurance is a contract. If you say you have experience when you don’t, it’s misrepresentation and in the event of a claim where lack of experience could be a factor you could find you are uninsured. Similarly, if you represent yourself as experienced when you are not this is also going to invalidate your insurance.

In the UK, insurers rarely ask for proof, however if you say you hold an International Certificate of Competence when you don’t, that would be a bit problem. Similarly I recently went from owning a 30’ sailing boat to a 42’ semi-displacement motor cruiser, and I had to confirm I had at least two years experience of this type of craft. I had been sailing and cruising for 55 years and had handled other people’s motor cruisers up to 60’ length and had an ICC for power and sail. I didn’t need to produce it. Despite this and for our own confidence my wife and I booked a day with a professional skipper to make sure we knew how to handle the new power boat. I would say that until you KNOW you are competent with a particular craft you should not say you are.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Siberian Sea

So you buy a sailboat and sail it across the ocean, then someone over there asks you to prove your competency......... I’ve never really understood this

How would they know your level of experience unless they asked?

If someone asked you to cover them financially, wouldn't you feel you had the right to determine risk? At the end of the day, it's their money, you're paying the insurance company a small fraction to maintain the right to collect.

[Finspeak]

They don’t ask, because they make it a condition of the insurance that you have the necessary experience and relevant licences. That way they don’t have to ask, or handle loads of paperwork. Marinas usually ask to SEE your insurance because you could be gone tomorrow having wrecked another boat. Charterers want to see licences for the same reason. But an insurance company can make it a. CONDITION of the insurance that you have the experience and licences. I hope that clarifies

[botanybay]

When I moved from a 35 footer to a 55 footer both with offshore coverage I was definitely asked for a sailing resume. I provided a list of years owned and offshore passages completed and got back an "we would be delighted to insure your new vessel".

When I moved to a new company some years later all they cared about was how long had I been sailing the new vessel.

Insurance is a risk avoidance business, if they feel there is excessive risk it will show up in your rates.

My first keel boat was the 35 footer and no one asked many questions, then again that was for the Chesapeake bay, not California/Oregon/Washington and part of Mexico out 200 nmi

[Finspeak]

Although the Phonecians were the first people to do any kind of boat insurance more than 4000 years ago, the first recorded documented marine insurance was in London, England in the 1700s at Edward Lloyd's coffee house, which became Lloyds of London. Most English-speaking countries have derived their marine insurance from these original principles, and in different parts of the world local law will impact on this too, especially in the USA where the law can change from state to state. 85% of British sailors remain in UK waters. The few who go overseas usually travel only to Europe, where our UK policies are universally accepted, as long as there's a translation in the local language. If we take a "leap" and sail further afield, such as to the US or other parts of the globe we can get marine insurance here, with the necessary endorsements to provide cover that meets the requirements of the countries we visit.

In such circumstances I'm sure we would have to give details of our experience. we have established certification schemes in the UK run by the Royal Yachting Association ("RYA"), from "Day Skipper" up to "Yachtmaster Offshore and Ocean (practical and theory). The practical involves four days at sea with a qualified instructor and many people fail. I doubt an insurer would cover me for sailing across the Atlantic unless I held the RYA Yachtmaster Ocean certificate, which requires proof you have undertaken a non-stop voyage of 600 miles (minimum) at least 50miles off land, at sea for a minimum of 96 hours, with you in command of the vessel and doing all the passage making. A chart plotter can be used, but all courses have to be calculated using paper charts and celestial navigation and this has to be certified. so it's far from easy.

The UK is a maritime nation. We are surrounded by water, have the second highest tides in the world (up to 45' / 15 metres rise and fall) and inland we have a massive network of rivers and canals, most of which are navigable, so the British have a long relationship with boats. Despite this, there are plenty of people now taking to the water who have no experience and do the dumbest things, so I'm sure the legislation will get tougher in time.