Do you pay for true LOA?

[anthem00]

I use the listed length on the uscg documentation. I’m sure I’m a hair longer but not sure I want to do more explaining

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

I am amazed how many are comfortable lying in order to save a few bucks! Reading this thread and the similar one at Trawler Forum, the amount of rationalizing and tap dancing to justify theft by fraud is a real eye opener. My default position has always been that my fellow boaters were decent honorable people,, but it sure seems that a segment is not.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Actually, it’s a well known and well studied trait of human nature. We all tend to lie. Most of us only lie a little bit, but there are about 20% (based on various experiments) who lie a lot more.

I don't believe you. [grin]

Seriously though, as a secondary reply to Woodland Hills' comment about honesty, I think that if people feel like they are being treated fairly, they are more likely to be honest. It's like laws. If folks believe laws are unjust, or arbitrary, they are more likely to be broken. Take speed traps for example (randomly dropping the speed limit in a zone for not apparent reason, a common practice in some US States). If people don't see a police car monitoring the area, they are very likely to ignore the drop in speed limit and continue on, even though they are now breaking the law.

I think a similar dynamic happens with marinas charging per foot. It creates a situation where the customer is incentivized to lie. From the customers perspective, they might feel like they are being 'gamed' by the marina, so they are entitled to game them back. It creates a mistrust that actually profits no one and could be remedied in part by a simple change in pricing structure.

[Donald Bryden]

LOA does not include overhangs like a bowsprit or davits. LOA is a way of measuring in the nautical world. Right now, I'm looking for a dry berth for the winter. I'm telling the marinas my boat is 13.6 meters and with overhangs close to 15. Sometimes it is good to give it all and sometimes it is not necessary. Anytime someone asks me what my LOA is I tell the 13.6 because that is what it is
.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Donald Bryden

LOA does not include overhangs like a bowsprit or davits. LOA is a way of measuring in the nautical world. Right now, I'm looking for a dry berth for the winter. I'm telling the marinas my boat is 13.6 meters and with overhangs close to 15. Sometimes it is good to give it all and sometimes it is not necessary. Anytime someone asks me what my LOA is I tell the 13.6 because that is what it is
.

L.O.A. DOES include overhangs. L.O.A is ""Length Over ALL' you're confusing LOA with LOD (Length On Deck) LOD of couse does not include overhangs and both are used in the Nautical world to describe the length of the boat basd on the deck length and the total length of the boat including any overhangs (LOA)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Argyle38

I don't believe you. [grin]

Seriously though, as a secondary reply to Woodland Hills' comment about honesty, I think that if people feel like they are being treated fairly, they are more likely to be honest. It's like laws. If folks believe laws are unjust, or arbitrary, they are more likely to be broken. Take speed traps for example (randomly dropping the speed limit in a zone for not apparent reason, a common practice in some US States). If people don't see a police car monitoring the area, they are very likely to ignore the drop in speed limit and continue on, even though they are now breaking the law.

Yeah, it’s something like that … at least that’s what the research suggests. Seems to be a conjunction of self-interest (paying less) AND staying within the range of (ir)rational rationalizations that we all do all the time. We all know the speed limit, but most will exceed it ‘just a little bit’ because … fill in the excuse (we’re busy, we’re late, we are a good drive, da man doesn’t know what he’s talking about…). Same with taxes; most people cheat, but just a little.

Behavioural psychologists and economists have conducted reams of experiments on people all over the world. The results are pretty consistent: We all cheat a little if we’re motivated to do so, AND we can get away with it. We stop at a little because we still need to rationalize it to ourselves.

Originally Posted by Argyle38

I think a similar dynamic happens with marinas charging per foot. It creates a situation where the customer is incentivized to lie. From the customers perspective, they might feel like they are being 'gamed' by the marina, so they are entitled to game them back. It creates a mistrust that actually profits no one and could be remedied in part by a simple change in pricing structure.

Perfect example .

[Lancerbye]

Having worked as a dockmaster for a couple years after retirement I have come to the conclusion that everybody lies and the exceptions are the boaters that give you the right length. There is a difference between how transients are handled and permanent slip renters are handled. We would generally charge transients according to the given length regardless of the slip we allocated to them. It was better to rent a 50 ft. slip to a 30 footer than leave it empty for a few days. However the permanent slips are rented by the slip length and side ties were by LOA. We had 5 different slip lengths and the shortest were 30 ft. If you wanted the moor a 24 ft. boat you either waited for a side tie on the long docks or paid for a 30 ft. slip. We did use a measuring wheel to keep everyone honest.

[Donald Bryden]

I must respectfully disagree (kind of). If you have a Olson 30 with a 5 foot bowsprit and you try to sell it as an Olson 35, you might get charged with fraud. Here are a couple of short references I found on an internet search. "A vessel's length overall dictates the equipment the vessel must have to comply with federal and state laws. Length overall is measured from the tip of the bow in a straight line to the stern of the vessel. Bowsprits; rudders; outboard motors and motor brackets; handles; and other fittings, attachments, and extensions are not included in the measurement." and "A ship's Length Overall [LOA] is measured in feet and inches from the extreme forward end of the bow to the extreme aft end of the stern. Watercraft operators must be familiar with this and similar dimensions to safely maneuver the ship. The dimension is commonly found in lists of ship's data for each vessel." To be fair, I found definitions that agreed with you as well.

[mnpowers]

My boat is a Bayliner 4588. Both registration and documentation list length as 45 feet, but the LOA is 52 feet.

I always report the boat's LOA when I call in.

I find that what the marinas charge depends... sometimes for the full 52, sometimes for the registered 45.

[Sir_Crabs_A_Lot]

I had a 39' Hudson Trawler at Elliott bay Marina (Seattle) years ago. They put me in a 42' slip because of the swim step BUT they insisted I remove the dinghy every time. It was a real PITA because it was so heavy. LOA was only 43' with the dinghy left on.

[zeehag]

same as jason flare-- my formosa measures out longer than the document states.
thankfully the only places i have encountered pay same as panama canal are in lost angeles and san diego .
we pay for the length stated on documentation everywhere in mainland mexico. there may be locales charging overall length, but that is thankfully rare here.

[lestersails]

Talk about lying about size - have any of you rented a car lately? A Ford Fusion is a 'full size' car. A Hyundai Elantra is an 'intermediate'. As if. I know that all advertising involves a degree of deception, but this is pathetic.

[FlyingScot]

Many (most?) boat names are longer than the actual LOD or LOA. My Leopard 40 is 11.97m / 39'3". The newer Leopard 40 is 11.99m / 39'4". I have 40' on the USCG documentation. My bowsprit is removable/foldable. My solar hangs above the dinghy davits.

I just say Leopard 40 and go with that.

If someone wants to come measure, they can, but it sure seems to create an distrustful atmosphere, unless it's a linear dock and being precise matters.

Other pricing models can be successful. Nothing about marina pricing is fair or has to be fair.

The standard model is to pay $/ft but...
Longer boat slips are typically wider, thus more area for every foot in length and boat volume is cubic, thus way more living space inside the boat relative to price paid.

I think larger boats get a much better deal, relatively speaking. Smaller boats probably think that about mine.

[phoenix-marie]

My marina actually measures the boat including any gear that extends off the boat such as anchors or windvanes. We are charged by the actual length including gear.

[lestersails]

FWIW here is what Wikipedia says:
"LOA is usually measured on the hull alone.[2] For sailing ships, this may exclude the bowsprit and other fittings added to the hull. This is how some racing boats and tall ships use the term LOA.[3] However, other sources may include bowsprits in LOA.[4][5] Confusingly, LOA has different meanings.[6][7] "Sparred length", "Total length including bowsprit", "Mooring length" and "LOA including bowsprit" are other expressions that might indicate the full length of a sailing ship.

Often used to distinguish between the length of a vessel including projections (e.g. bow sprits, etc.) from the length of the hull itself, the Length on Deck or LOD is often reported. This is especially useful for smaller sailing vessels, as their LOA can be significantly different from their LOD.[8][9]"

Perhaps people can be forgiven for not including the bowsprit or other fittings.

I have never head "LOD" - have others?

[valhalla360]

I give them the model which includes the length number and they write up the bill...if they want to take the time to come out and measure, that's up to them...they pretty much always write down the length in the model number and go off that.

Can't get upset with me if they don't take the time to measure. I'm not lying about anything.

Of course, we don't have excessive overhangs. If you have a 15' bowsprit and davits that extend 8' off the stern, this won't work so well.