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Old 28-04-2020, 05:06   #91
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Thanks all for your comments.

Robert - where did you get a policy for $350? I'd happily pay that - or twice that - but for my custom, 20-year old, wood cat, I was quoted $4,300.00 by BoatUS. Plus would need a survey. Cha-ching...

Interesting that Progressive provided a policy for a 50' boat. Wonder if that was grandfathered in as it seems the length limitations are a new thing.

Anyway, still looking for that "magic" insurer as I'm about to be hauled and need coverage!
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Old 28-04-2020, 05:19   #92
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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Originally Posted by emueller View Post
Robert - where did you get a policy for $350? I'd happily pay that - or twice that - but for my custom, 20-year old, wood cat, I was quoted $4,300.00 by BoatUS. Plus would need a survey. Cha-ching...
I too pay about that for comprehensive coverage. But I'm in Canada, based out of Newfoundland, although my insurance does cover me for travel down close to the Chesapeake. I'm sure my broker can't help you, but my underwriter is Intact Insurance. Maybe they operate in your market.

It does seem like insurance rates for those on the American eastern coast are very expensive. And they seem to come with greater limitations and restrictions. Guess all that hurricane damage has to be paid by someone.
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Old 28-04-2020, 07:29   #93
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Well folks, as the original poster I am not seeing anything promising in the replies as far as support from the insurance companies. Short of starting our own marina/storage facility the only direction I see is some out of the Box thinking. Thanks for all the replies.
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Old 28-04-2020, 07:31   #94
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I'd view it as part of my risk assessment. If I thought there was a significant enough risk of being damaged by an uninsured boater, I'd make sure I have the coverage. But in my limited experience it is a standard feature of comprehensive insurance packages. But maybe that's not the norm...?

Good question. One would hope it doesn't, but insurance companies are there to make money, not worry about what is fair.
Hi Mike. I've noted you have mentioned "Uninsured boater" coverage for damages several times. I've had policies with several major insurers - BoatUS, Foremost, Chubb - and all had uninsured boater coverage. But none of them were to cover damage to your boat by an uninsured boater. They were solely for coverage of medical costs to your occupants due to injury sustained by uninsured boater.

Here is an excerpt from the Chubb policy:

Uninsured Boaters Protection

Pays a covered person damages for bodily injury sustained while on board a covered vessel caused by owner or operator of an uninsured or under-insured vessel


This is for Foremost:

Uninsured Watercraft

Provides coverage for compensatory damages for bodily injury that the insured is legally entitled to recover from the owner or operator of an uninsured watercraft.


I suspect that all of the major insurers are similar - "uninsured" only covers medical costs. My understanding - and someone please correct me if I am wrong - is that if you have comprehensive insurance, it is your insurance company and claim that would cover repair of damage to your vessel caused by a boat with no insurance. If someone is carrying liability only, even if they have uninsured watercraft coverage, they don't have any coverage for physical damage to their boat caused by an uninsured boater.
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Old 28-04-2020, 08:18   #95
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
Hi Mike. I've noted you have mentioned "Uninsured boater" coverage for damages several times. I've had policies with several major insurers - BoatUS, Foremost, Chubb - and all had uninsured boater coverage. But none of them were to cover damage to your boat by an uninsured boater. They were solely for coverage of medical costs to your occupants due to injury sustained by uninsured boater.

Here is an excerpt from the Chubb policy:

Uninsured Boaters Protection

Pays a covered person damages for bodily injury sustained while on board a covered vessel caused by owner or operator of an uninsured or under-insured vessel


This is for Foremost:

Uninsured Watercraft

Provides coverage for compensatory damages for bodily injury that the insured is legally entitled to recover from the owner or operator of an uninsured watercraft.


I suspect that all of the major insurers are similar - "uninsured" only covers medical costs. My understanding - and someone please correct me if I am wrong - is that if you have comprehensive insurance, it is your insurance company and claim that would cover repair of damage to your vessel caused by a boat with no insurance. If someone is carrying liability only, even if they have uninsured watercraft coverage, they don't have any coverage for physical damage to their boat caused by an uninsured boater.

I'll have to check my policy sailjumanji. I don't recall that clause being written like this, but I may be wrong.

I've only ever seen this kind of Uninsured coverage as part of a comprehensive policy. I suppose it could be part of a liability-only policy, but I've not seen it.
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Old 28-04-2020, 08:52   #96
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
Hi Mike. I've noted you have mentioned "Uninsured boater" coverage for damages several times. I've had policies with several major insurers - BoatUS, Foremost, Chubb - and all had uninsured boater coverage. But none of them were to cover damage to your boat by an uninsured boater. They were solely for coverage of medical costs to your occupants due to injury sustained by uninsured boater.

Here is an excerpt from the Chubb policy:

Uninsured Boaters Protection

Pays a covered person damages for bodily injury sustained while on board a covered vessel caused by owner or operator of an uninsured or under-insured vessel


This is for Foremost:

Uninsured Watercraft

Provides coverage for compensatory damages for bodily injury that the insured is legally entitled to recover from the owner or operator of an uninsured watercraft.


I suspect that all of the major insurers are similar - "uninsured" only covers medical costs. My understanding - and someone please correct me if I am wrong - is that if you have comprehensive insurance, it is your insurance company and claim that would cover repair of damage to your vessel caused by a boat with no insurance. If someone is carrying liability only, even if they have uninsured watercraft coverage, they don't have any coverage for physical damage to their boat caused by an uninsured boater.

You are indeed correct! Thanks for point this out sailjumanji. My policy is indeed written almost exactly as you state. Thanks for straightening me out about this.
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Old 28-04-2020, 14:56   #97
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

There are two interesting concepts that apply here. 'Tragedy of the Commons' and 'The Principle Agency Problem'. I recommend you look them up on wiki.



If you group-self-insure you eliminate these and on a risk weighted basis reduce the cost of claims significantly. You can then take the profit and the supply chain costs out and get it down further. If the group is large enough the argument that an unforseen pay out causes pain does not apply. This is what the oil, gas and chemical plant industry does. If you're worried about such an event to can hedge against that.



There is a halfway house in group negotiation. This involves creating a book and selling it to the highest bidder (i.e. the lowest premium offered). It has nearly the same benefits, but is easier to set up and administer.
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Old 28-04-2020, 15:34   #98
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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You are indeed correct! Thanks for point this out sailjumanji. My policy is indeed written almost exactly as you state. Thanks for straightening me out about this.
Hey, no issues. And yes, i am not familiar with liability-only policies either.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:33   #99
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

I was just reading a Practical Sailor article on insurance, and it got me looking at my policy. A Google search on a related item (how high can my liability coverage go) found this link:
https://www.boatus.com/products-and-...liability-only


According to the plain language statement on that link, BoatUS provides
"The BoatUS Liability Only policy is available for all boats owned outright (with no lienholder)."


Now, this is the internet, and nothing can be taken at face value. But that statement says "all" which, to me, means...well, "all." 20' power boats or 100' classics, as long as they are owned outright.


Harry
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:06   #100
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

We had BoatUS since 2004, switching in June to Allstate. The issue was they doubled our rates for insurance over 3 years, and I've had ZERO claims, ever. I have little debt, the same job for 20 years, no at fault car accidents in 5 years. When I looked at allstate they are less than half the price. BoatUS is now owned by GEICO, after GEICO bought them out, that's when insurance rates started skyrocketing, even though we had them for car insurance as well. BoatUS also only insures in US waters. I'm not sure if Allstate will cover internationally though.



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FYI:

Boat Owners Association of The United States, better known as BoatUS, is an American association of boat owners offering various services supporting recreational boat and trailer towing activities. Among their services are boat insurance and boat loans, discounts on boating-related products and services, mediation services with manufacturers and dealers, a product recall alert registry, and lobbying organization on behalf of boat owners. The organization is based in Springfield, Virginia, and promotes itself “The Nation’s Largest Recreational Boating Association” and "The Boat Owners Auto Club" for its similarities to AAA.

BoatUS also gave rise to the organization that would be eventually called the BoatUS Foundation for Boating Safety and Clean Water, a 501(c)(3) charitable organization that promotes safe boating and environmentally responsible boating practices.
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:34   #101
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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BoatUS also only insures in US waters.

Minor detail -- I know my BoatUS covers coastal waters of US and Canada. I also think it covers Bahamas, and may cover (or can have a rider) for Mexico (I have no near-term plans to go south, so I've not paid close attention). Of curious note, I don't think they cover St Pierre and Miquelon, which will be a problem for us next summer (trivia question -- how many countries are in North America? Answer, 4 -- Mexico, US, Canada, and St Pierre and Miquelon).


I, and others, have had real problems getting a clear definition of "Coastal Waters of US and Canada." Does a non-stop from Halifax to Key West, easily being 400 miles offshore, count as "Coastal?" Does a trip through the North West Passage (clearly, undeniably, "coastal waters of Canada") meet their intent? Somehow, I think both would have answers of "NO!"



But your concern about truly international, to include Caribbean, Bermuda, Europe, etc, is spot on.
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:54   #102
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

In 2016, BoatUS covered us in Bahamas. I got a quote for 2019 for a different boat, and BoatUS also covered Bahamas.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:03   #103
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

I might as well give numbers since everyone has to gain, my BoatUS policy went from around $1500 to $3000 in 3 years, no claims, great credit rating. My Allstate quote came back as around $980, the final quote came in around $1500 I think, the reason for the increase was between my wife and I we had 2 traffic incidents. She had a speeding ticket and she also had a traffic accident where another car hit her from the side, recorded and admitted to by the other drive as his fault, and seen by the insurance agency as not her fault, but it was still an "occurrence". If we had 3 they wouldn't have insured us for the boat. As it was, we had to wait till June to get the insurance because I had an accident (hit from the rear, again, not my fault), 5 years ago that was dropping off in June.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:19   #104
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Friends I have been in contact with Easy123 who has expertise in setting up businesses and a lot more knowledge about the insurance industry than me. His position is that yes, it would be very possible and beneficial to build a co-op for liability only insurance. As both of us are semi retired we have no desire to take on the administrative aspect of this but we would work together to set up the initial structure with an administrator. The salaried administrator position would be a perfect opportunity for someone looking to operate a non profit organization from their live aboard boat. The goal here is to cut middleman profits and offer premium reductions upward of 20%. Also our policy would have less restrictions. I suspect that this model is currently being used in the collector car culture as small companies such as Hagerty offer coverage at very low rates. Any thoughts ?
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:27   #105
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Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

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I might as well give numbers since everyone has to gain, my BoatUS policy went from around $1500 to $3000 in 3 years, no claims, great credit rating. My Allstate quote came back as around $980, the final quote came in around $1500 I think, the reason for the increase was between my wife and I we had 2 traffic incidents. She had a speeding ticket and she also had a traffic accident where another car hit her from the side, recorded and admitted to by the other drive as his fault, and seen by the insurance agency as not her fault, but it was still an "occurrence". If we had 3 they wouldn't have insured us for the boat. As it was, we had to wait till June to get the insurance because I had an accident (hit from the rear, again, not my fault), 5 years ago that was dropping off in June.
It’s post like this, and I have seen more than few, that convince me that a co-op would be beneficial for all.
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