Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-03-2020, 06:51   #46
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,131
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Ok. It seemed you were responding to my post that responded to chrisr post that proposed exactly the shared risk co-op, a P&I Club.. You are now talking about a new corporation, for profit or non-profit, that is a new insurance company. It would be interesting business to get into at a time that experienced companies are getting out.
In those other responses I was simply pointing out there is no necessity to assume there would be higher personal risk to the individuals of the cooperative. Limited liability still exists, be it a for-profit, or a not-for-profit corporation. And of course you would use these structures -- why would you not?

It would indeed be an interesting business to be getting into right now. And by interesting I mean kinda crazy. Which is why my main contribution here continues to be that we should be focused on the broker side of things.

I don't think there's necessarily a lack of underwriters (although they do seem to be shrinking in numbers). The main problem people face is rising premiums and lack of ability to access inexpensive liability-only coverage. This appears to be a broker problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyNA View Post
...As I posted earlier I think a considerable increase to our insurance costs come form storm losses in the charter fleet industry. I also think "insured owner apathy" results leaving their boats in harms way and not maintaining them has massively contributed to losses. These are high risk subjects. The charter feet problem has grown over time and will continue to grow as sailing becomes less affordable for individual owners. ...
It makes sense, but I'd love to know if this is truly the case; that everyone's rates are increasing due to the massive charter fleet losses of late. We've all seen the after-hurricane pictures of charter boats stacked up on shore like cord-wood. But is this really the main source of the increasing losses the insurance companies are claiming? It makes sense, but I wish I could see the data.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 06:56   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
......

I don't think there's necessarily a lack of underwriters (although they do seem to be shrinking in numbers). The main problem people face is rising premiums and lack of ability to access inexpensive liability-only coverage. This appears to be a broker problem.
......
I don't think there is any evidence that the increased rates are due to brokers. Do you have evidence that brokers are some how inhibiting boaters from purchasing liability only insurance vs the underwriters not wishing to offer it?
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 07:10   #48
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,131
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
I don't think there is any evidence that the increased rates are due to brokers. Do you have evidence that brokers are some how inhibiting boaters from purchasing liability only insurance vs the underwriters not wishing to offer it?
Yes, I do. A broker from a well known boat brokerage said exactly this in another recent thread. I can find the link again if you like. And another former broker also said the same in this thread a few pages back. And then there was the liability-only shopper here who shared his experience talking to many brokers at a big boat show (again, in this thread).

Underwriters can always price their product to make money. It's based on actuarial analysis, their corporate risk tolerance, and their demand for profit. Brokers get paid a commission based on a percentage of the policy they facilitate.

Liability policies are is cheap, so brokers get small peanuts from these policies. Yet they still have to spend a similar amount of time researching and writing and managing these policies. And as the one broker said, often managing a claim in a liability case can be even more time consuming that a simple accident claim.

It's a common story to hear about people trying to get liability-only. They can't find a broker who will work with them. But clearly there are some who will, since 15% to 30% of CF folks who respond to online surveys say they have liability-only policies.

So my tack is that we should identify these brokers, and drive business their way. Or, if you want to be really ambitious (which I do not), start a new brokerage firm, and focus on this end of the business.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 07:22   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 73
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

From my recent experience in trying to buy another BoatUS/Geico liability only policy. In 2017 and 2018 I had a 300k policy with all the other usual pollution coverage etc for $179.00 per year for a 1983 monohull valued at 60k. I'm considering sailing back to the USA from Panama soon (virus mania pending) and need a USA liability policy again. After checking in with BoatUS, they told me they no longer sell liability only policies for yachts over 30 feet. My only option was an agreed value ($60k) policy for $2,236.00 per year. Even lowering the agreed value down to 15k and raising deductible to max 5% only got the premium down to $1,241 per year. My first thought told me the numbers was they need the guys like me to help fund the full coverage due to losses they have had the past few years. I'll likely buy the full coverage policy and have it for the few months we're in the US and cancel it and effectively pay only the pro-rata if that is possible. I think is a loss problem and not a broker problem.
TonyNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 07:34   #50
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,131
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyNA View Post
...I think is a loss problem and not a broker problem.
I think the underwriters are increasing the cost of their insurance policies. Why that is remains speculative. It makes sense that it is due to the huge losses of late through the various hurricanes, but I don't know for sure. It could be other reasons.

But as I say, underwriters price their policies to make money based on the actuarial data and their demand for profit (and probably a bunch of other factors). But brokers make money based their commissions.

Liability coverage has always been pretty cheap. Even if it is increasing, it's still way cheaper than comprehensive coverage. This is why it makes sense that brokers don't really want to deal with these policies. It's a PITA, and it nets them very little money.

This is I don't fault brokers for acting this way -- I'd do the same if I was in their business. But it leaves people who want to have liability-only policies out in the cold.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 10:03   #51
Registered User
 
Shrew's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,074
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

I feel like anyone proposing to engage in a private mutual insurance company doesn't really understand how insurance works. Let's say you have 10 people with 10 boats. Each boat is worth 100K.

One boat is a total loss. Each member pays 10K. You need A LOT of members and you need to collect at least as much as you pay out. You cannot make a variable premium based on payouts, because you need to maintain a reserve. Ideally, your reserve would equal the total of all insured assets (1 million based on the example), but that is rarely the case.

I assure you, attempting to start your own mutual insurance company will be much, much more expensive. Otherwise, 10 people, each with a $1,000/yr premium ($10K) will only handle a single , minor claim before they need to send massive assessment to the members. Then it would be likely that each subsequent claim would require another assessment or a massive hike in premiums.
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 18:46   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Yes, I do. A broker from a well known boat brokerage said exactly this in another recent thread. I can find the link again if you like. And another former broker also said the same in this thread a few pages back. And then there was the liability-only shopper here who shared his experience talking to many brokers at a big boat show (again, in this thread).

Underwriters can always price their product to make money. It's based on actuarial analysis, their corporate risk tolerance, and their demand for profit. Brokers get paid a commission based on a percentage of the policy they facilitate.

Liability policies are is cheap, so brokers get small peanuts from these policies. Yet they still have to spend a similar amount of time researching and writing and managing these policies. And as the one broker said, often managing a claim in a liability case can be even more time consuming that a simple accident claim.

It's a common story to hear about people trying to get liability-only. They can't find a broker who will work with them. But clearly there are some who will, since 15% to 30% of CF folks who respond to online surveys say they have liability-only policies.

So my tack is that we should identify these brokers, and drive business their way. Or, if you want to be really ambitious (which I do not), start a new brokerage firm, and focus on this end of the business.
Doesn't sound like evidence to me. Show me where underwriters are unable to get their liability only products out to customers because they are blocked by brokers. Their are a number of underwriters you can contact directly without a broker.

I suspect that most underwriters aren't wiling to do the paperwork and take on the million dollar plus risk for under $500 a year revenue.
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 19:26   #53
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,131
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Doesn't sound like evidence to me. Show me where underwriters are unable to get their liability only products out to customers because they are blocked by brokers. Their are a number of underwriters you can contact directly without a broker.

I suspect that most underwriters aren't wiling to do the paperwork and take on the million dollar plus risk for under $500 a year revenue.




Whatever... you believe what you want. Tell me how it goes getting liability coverage.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 20:25   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Franklin, Ohio
Boat: Homebuilt schooner 64 ft. Sold.
Posts: 1,486
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

As the author of this thread maybe due to a bleak outlook of forming a co-op for liability only insurance I look at alternatives for storing a boat when not cruising. My real goal. Thanks for the replies.
captlloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 20:38   #55
Registered User
 
Matt Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 3,194
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

https://bavaria-ag.de

For anyone outside the States, this company will write liability only policies. Our is $2 million for $290 a year. No survey needed (At least when we signed up in 2017).

-Matt
__________________
MJSailing - Youtube Vlog -
Matt Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 21:54   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post



Whatever... you believe what you want. Tell me how it goes getting liability coverage.
I'm not looking for liability coverage now. I'm looking for comprehensive. If I was looking for liability I would certainly use the hard data you state to skip the brokers and get it direct from the underwriters
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 22:19   #57
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,027
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

I am surprised that someone hasn't yet "uberized" at least liability only policies. I'm sure if they exist the underwriters would be more than happy to split the difference of foregoing the brokers' commissions altogether with the policy buyers.
Island Time O25 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2020, 23:08   #58
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,653
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post



Whatever... you believe what you want. Tell me how it goes getting liability coverage.
We have liability and wreck removal with pantaneius
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2020, 05:28   #59
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,131
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
https://bavaria-ag.de

For anyone outside the States, this company will write liability only policies. Our is $2 million for $290 a year. No survey needed (At least when we signed up in 2017).

-Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
We have liability and wreck removal with pantaneius
Great! See, there's the information other CFers can use.

Simi, which pantaneius office is that through? I infer from many comments here that the US arm operates differently than the European.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2020, 10:31   #60
Registered User
 
sailormike's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: marathon, florida
Boat: 36' Bayfield sloop
Posts: 10
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschmidt View Post
The insurance offered by BoatUS is a for-profit subsidiary which is run by Geico I believe.

Also a boat owners coop type of insurance would have a hard time meeting the requirements of the lending industry.
My insurance is a full coverage policy thru Gieco at BoatUS on a 1985 Bayfield which recently surveyed at $62.5K. I asked the folks at BoatUS insurance about a liability only policy and was told that they don't write 'em. In May, my renewal price goes up about 10%. No claims, recent survey and the Bahamas thing. I liveaboard in SWFL
sailormike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser, insurance, rum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
General Info: New Forum and Sub-Forum Janet H Fountaine Pajot 14 25-10-2020 06:58
Hello Cruisers at Cruisers Forum ! jazzsail Meets & Greets 15 25-11-2010 08:27

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.