Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-03-2020, 05:17   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,892
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captlloyd View Post
It’s not a matter of knowing more, it’s a matter of lowering their take and providing incentives to boaters ( members) that insurers are not willing to provide. Like liability only. We have a lot of members who pay a lot of money every year for insurance who never make a claim.
The mind is like a parachute, it has to be open to function.
I get why you don't want to pay insurance company profits.

But not making a claim over a certain number of years doesn't mean you never will.

If a giant insurance company has difficulty with the risk boats in hurricane zones or sailing around the world pose, you think a club we formed here "just among friends" can do better? Even just with liability-only policies?

Instead of eating popcorn you should be telling us about your actuary skills, because that's where you would need to start. Show us some information that it makes sense to do this. Some times it IS a matter of knowing more.

A co-op is a great idea, but it has to be big enough to absorb the overall risk. And when you start working that hard to do this, you naturally will want to get paid... Hey, look! You're an insurance company!
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 05:37   #17
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Currently aboard Queensland
Boat: Woods Vardo 34 Cat
Posts: 3,817
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

About 20 years ago there existed a self insuring co-op network of racing sailors in NY/ CT. Don't know what happened with it.
__________________
@mojomarine1
Boatguy30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 07:16   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 2,118
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
How much do you pay? For what coverage, over what area? What restrictions? And who's the broker and underwriter ... these pieces of information might actually help fellow boaters.
I posted all of my info on the other Insurance topic just recently. I assume you read it, as you posted on it too. Im not going to bother to repost.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

But we pay - just renewed on Feb 15 - $4200 annual premium on $450k agreed value, 2% deductible, 5% named storm, with Bahamas rider, and in the Gulf of Mexico year round with no haulout requirement. That might sound good, but last year i paid $2600 premium for same policy. Go back and read the other insurance topic, if you want more info.

Yeah, and some insurance companies have preferential rates for "high" net worth and a host of other considerstions. But i continue to read 1% is fiction (mine is actually slightly less than 1%), blah, blah, blah. I have friends with similar rates, although some have charter coverage that escalates it a bit.

Just trying to say comparing rates on a forum like this is pointless. If rates didnt have some individual/owner component, we would all be paying the same low premium. I found the best policy to be American Modern (AMIG) and Chubb (although i understand they are limited on who they write policies for). BoatUS quote was over double what we are paying. Pantaneus required a haulout, which we dont have local facilities to do. If you live in hurricane belt, pay particular attention to named storm deductible. That was key importance for us.

Ill say it again, go find a broker who will shop for you. I suspect it wont be worth their time to look for liability policies. Also its probably easier to find insurance on a newer boat. But thats just a guess. That said, our last boat was 16 yrs old when we sold it, another Seawind cat, and never had issue getting it insured. And premium then was also around 1% (in 2018).
sailjumanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 07:21   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 2,118
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Yeah, I call BS on that.



40 years on water experience

2 small claims over 15 years ago

Not in a cyclone or hurricane area

Do not race

Premium increased 400%
Mine increased 80% this year. But what that i posted are you calling BS on? I didnt say rates didnt increase this year. I just said rates are based on other factors, in addition to those associated with the boat.
sailjumanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 07:26   #20
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 13,535
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Liability-only coverage is cheap because the risk is low to the underwriter. But that is based on each company's large pooled risk, and their shared risk through other financial means. It is certainly possible to create a non-profit version of this; that's how insurance started. But it's not an easy task.

Personally, I'd rather focus on the real problem around accessing liability-only policies. It's not the underwriters, it's the brokers.

Underwriters always price their products to make money. But brokers get paid on a commission based on the value of the products they sell. Since liability-only policies are so inexpensive, there's really little incentive for brokers to facilitate them.

As was explained here recently by a broker who works for a well respected brokerage, it can take as much time and effort to write and manage a liability-only policy, as it does a comprehensive policy. But the broker gets paid a much smaller amount.

This is exactly why you got the cold shoulder at the show Island Time, and why I experienced the same when I raised the question with the same well known brokerage a while back. There's simply not enough money it it for the brokers. I get it. Makes perfect sense.

But some brokers clearly do write liability-only policies. Based on surveys here (one I ran), anywhere from 15% to 30% of respondents report having liability-only policies. But too many boaters have a hard time finding a broker who will help them get one of these policies.

So maybe the real solution is to identify and publicize the list of brokers who will take this business. OR, if you're really ambitious, start a non-profit brokerage that specializes in liability-only policies.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 11:05   #21
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,284
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
Mine increased 80% this year. But what that i posted are you calling BS on? I didnt say rates didnt increase this year. I just said rates are based on other factors, in addition to those associated with the boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
.

Insurance rates factor in the individual owner,
as much as they do the boat and the area. Someday people will realize that
.
The highlighted bit.
In our case it can not be based on owner or area based.
What other factors are there? Greed?

They told us it was Lloyd's getting out of the market and Berkshire Hathaway and Chubb taking over the underwriting and anything over 18m getting raped.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 11:30   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Franklin, Ohio
Boat: Homebuilt schooner 64 ft. Sold.
Posts: 1,485
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
I get why you don't want to pay insurance company profits.

But not making a claim over a certain number of years doesn't mean you never will.

If a giant insurance company has difficulty with the risk boats in hurricane zones or sailing around the world pose, you think a club we formed here "just among friends" can do better? Even just with liability-only policies?

Instead of eating popcorn you should be telling us about your actuary skills, because that's where you would need to start. Show us some information that it makes sense to do this. Some times it IS a matter of knowing more.

A co-op is a great idea, but it has to be big enough to absorb the overall risk. And when you start working that hard to do this, you naturally will want to get paid... Hey, look! You're an insurance company!
Well, I guess some folks are incapable of not being snarky. If you read my original post nowhere did I say I have actuary skills. I also asked for ( pro and con) ideas on the subject. I wasnít aware there was some kind of icon usage police in force here either. There has been some very thoughtful replies to the post so far, I donít consider yours to be one. I do like Mikes idea of focusing in on liability availability though.
captlloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 11:55   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Lien Hwa 58
Posts: 1
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

I've been watching the insurance debate for quite a while now and felt I had to put in my 2 cents worth. I am an insurance underwriter (commercial marine and scuba diving) and have 30+ years experience broking, underwriting and handling claims. It is not easy, but it is really simple. The math does not currently add up and many brokers are losing their markets and capacity. There are many underwriters losing their jobs all around the world because their companies cannot turn a profit on marine insurance. Plain and simple. I used to write my own pleasure yacht policy (58 ft Lien Hwa), but we lost our pleasure yacht contract last year due to a poor loss ratio and when I bought insurance on the open market it was double what I used to pay. Horrified yes, surprised no, cause that's the way it works. A $500 liability only policy? Not going to happen. A single claim of $1,000,000 would require 2,000 x $500 policies just to pay the claim, not to mention the overhead, costs, legal fees etc., etc. These are big numbers and aren't going to work in a co-op structure. The typical insurance policy works like this: $2,000 premium for full coverage to the broker, less his $400 commission (assuming a 20% rate) sends $1600 to London (or wherever), less the Lloyd's broker $200 commission sends $1400 to the syndicate who has a 30% cost factor leaving around $980 for real insurance / claims payments - to break even. Your co-op is going to have similar costs (maybe less) but at $980 for claims per policy, you are going to need over 1,000 policies to break even. Start with a $500 policy and do the math. If that happens in a co-op scenario there is now nothing left at all to cover any additional risk. Meaning everyone it the co-op has to pay again. You can't control the potential for loss in a liability scenario cause liability is not "predictable". Your entire co-op revenue could be wiped out by a single claim. The reality? It is what it is and it is not going to change soon. Sorry. And, yes, insurance guys probably make too much money, but so does the rest of corporate anywhere, so that's not going to change either. Sorry again. I also hate paying for insurance, but at least I understand it, and the need for it. If you can get away without it, and don't mind the personal exposure then go for it. If you recognise the need for it, then get the best protection you can for the lowest price available. So, please continue the discussion and make suggestions for good, solid brokers that add value to the products they provide, that is greatly appreciated, but please get over the negative, price gouging commentary. Cheers.
pmilomeyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 12:02   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Long Island
Boat: Tartan 37C
Posts: 171
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Liability insurance is a fact of boating if you float your boat in a marina here in the North East. As an attorney, I see the largest issue/problem in being able to get insurance for consequential damages. My agent said that my policy will pay for a consequential damage claim, I beg to differ. I read my policy, word for word and I didn't see any consequential damage coverage at all. Do any of you have consequential damage coverage? I define consequential damages as a loss to my boat because of an event or consequence caused by another person or something like a through hull letting go and the boat sinks.
Captain Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 12:32   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 2,118
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
.
The highlighted bit.
In our case it can not be based on owner or area based.
What other factors are there? Greed?

They told us it was Lloyd's getting out of the market and Berkshire Hathaway and Chubb taking over the underwriting and anything over 18m getting raped.
Congrats - you obviously have the reasoning behind your premiums figured out. And I guess I should have been specific that my experience with insurance is limited to policies written while living in the US, for boats owned only over the last 30 years.

As for us, Chubb has provided us competitive quotes over the past two years, and their policy is pretty comprehensive, although our boat is only 11.6 m. They weren't the cheapest, and their named storm deductible was higher. But I also just looked at the Chubb application and the top of the form says they "will obtain and use credit information on you or any other member(s) of your household as a part of the insurance credit scoring process." Ok, so there is an example of the policy premium being based on the individual, and not the boat.

The policy we do have lists discounts for: homeowner, ultra-preferred customer, paid in full, and some others. All of these are owner-based. From what I was told about Chubb, they wont even write a policy for a cat, unless you are in a preferred group. And "preferred" has nothing to do with the boat.

Maybe Chubb and others operate different in Aussie land than they do in the US? But this is why I generally stay out of insurance discussions in public forums. No one wants to be told their premiums might at least be partially based on specifics of the individual. (For starters, just look at the questions on the application!)

One final piece of advice for people evaluating different policies. Things like valuation, depreciation, deductible - especially for named storm, etc. - those terms are pretty straightforward and comparable when looking at different policies. But look at the credit rating of the insurance company to judge how strong they are. And then call your friendly boat surveyor and ask him/her who they've felt were easy to deal with regarding claims, and who to stay away from. Might surprise you.
sailjumanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 12:50   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,892
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captlloyd View Post
Well, I guess some folks are incapable of not being snarky. If you read my original post nowhere did I say I have actuary skills. I also asked for ( pro and con) ideas on the subject. I wasn’t aware there was some kind of icon usage police in force here either. There has been some very thoughtful replies to the post so far, I don’t consider yours to be one. I do like Mikes idea of focusing in on liability availability though.
I'm just saying three things:

1) the math probably doesn't add up, and
2) you need to start with the actuarial information. Otherwise, how are you going to figure out what a policy should cost?, and
3) the reason the costs are going up is because we've had some traumatic weather events that affected places where people have boats.

But it's certainly worth asking the question. So, good luck.
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 13:33   #27
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 13,535
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmilomeyer View Post
I've been watching the insurance debate for quite a while now and felt I had to put in my 2 cents worth. I am an insurance underwriter (commercial marine and scuba diving) and have 30+ years experience broking, underwriting and handling claims. It is not easy, but it is really simple. The math does not currently add up and many brokers are losing their markets and capacity. There are many underwriters losing their jobs all around the world because their companies cannot turn a profit on marine insurance. Plain and simple.... So, please continue the discussion and make suggestions for good, solid brokers that add value to the products they provide, that is greatly appreciated, but please get over the negative, price gouging commentary. Cheers.
Thanks for this pmilomeyer. As I said, it's not so much the companies that underwrite the policies. It is the brokers who simply don't get enough money out of a liability-only policy. So they are less incentivized to deal with them.

But clearly there are brokers who are selling these products. A list of these brokers, along with any details about their policies they write, would be a great help to many CF members.

BTW, I completely agree with your final statement about good brokers. I don't blame the ones who don't want to deal with liability-only policies. We all gotta make money.

I just want to identify the "good ones" who will work with customers who want liability-only policies.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 14:51   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,533
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

The insurance offered by BoatUS is a for-profit subsidiary which is run by Geico I believe.

Also a boat owners coop type of insurance would have a hard time meeting the requirements of the lending industry.
jmschmidt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 15:48   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 499
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captlloyd View Post
Maybe you should. If they look that bad do they even have insurance ? And what are you going to do if they break loose and t-bone your boat ?

I carry $2,000,000 uninsured boater rider in my policy...think I'd be OK.
Eder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2020, 18:19   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 2,118
Re: Cruisers Forum Insurance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eder View Post
I carry $2,000,000 uninsured boater rider in my policy...think I'd be OK.
Check the fine print. The policies i have read regarding uninsured/underinsured only apply to bodily injury claims on your boat.
sailjumanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser, insurance, rum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
General Info: New Forum and Sub-Forum Janet H Fountaine Pajot 14 25-10-2020 06:58
Hello Cruisers at Cruisers Forum ! jazzsail Meets & Greets 15 25-11-2010 09:27

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.