Canadian Owner, FL bought, Ontario Registered, French Made - How to sell in US??

[MarigotRose]

Looking for someone that might have had to go through a similar or same experience of the following:

I'm a Canadian Owner
Bought the boat in Florida, a French built Beneteau for Caribbean charter market
Filed for Ontario Registration and left the US with a 90day permit to avoid paying FL sales tax on the purchase.
The seller was a European national who lived and worked in the US and brought it back from the charter fleet (not sure if he imported it into the US, although he likely would have had to I'm assuming)

As a Canadian - I've looked loosely into the taxes that would be due if i sailed her back into Lake Ontario
13% HST + 9.5% duty so far as i can calculate... 22.5%

So instead, i figured i'd try and sell her on the east coast of the US and drive home in a rental car

Does anyone know if i'd have to import her to the US? Pay taxes in the state she arrives back at?
Would revenue Canada be interested in the sale or $$s transferred? I certainly never received word from them about rebates of my paid Canadian taxes after the purchase ran me dry

I'd like to think a reliable/reputable broker would be able to give me the exact rundown....but i can only picture the broker who sold me the boat. Funny stories with that guy, including but not limited to him calling me often for the pressure sale and forgetting who I was, or what boat we'd be talking about. Always fun reminding him to get his patter back on track

Figure I'd ask in this pool of knowledge to get better educated before locking horns with the process

I think I know that the boat is not NAFTA eligible (unless it was already imported to the US perhaps? By the prev owner on his return from the Carib)

I tried to look into benefiting from the new CETA agreement between Europe and Canada - but that looks more like Registered Exporters and Importers doing business - rather than Canadian locals stepping off a plane with gallons of red wine screaming "Free trade for the peoples!!"

Any broker sale or private sale tips would be greatly appreciated - would hate to naively fall foul of US or Canadian Customs and Excise

[boatpoker]

Where is the boat currently registered/documented/licensed ?

[mcm]

Here is my experience..

Purchased US made vessel in|Florida, did the Bahamas thing to avoid Fl. sales tax, documented it in Vancouver BC, then much later sold in the US , no taxes no problems.

I assume if the seller brought it into the US legally then there is no reason I see for you not to sell it in the US. Check with USCG, it probably was State registered as foreign nationals cannot US document a vessel.

No taxes due to Ontario as the property never entered the Province.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by mcm

Here is my experience..

Purchased US made vessel in|Florida, did the Bahamas thing to avoid Fl. sales tax, documented it in Vancouver BC, then much later sold in the US , no taxes no problems.

I assume if the seller brought it into the US legally then there is no reason I see for you not to sell it in the US. Check with USCG, it probably was State registered as foreign nationals cannot US document a vessel.

No taxes due to Ontario as the property never entered the Province.

I assume you mean you either licensed it in Canada or registered it in Canada as there is no such thing as "documented" in Canada nor any Provincial licensing.

[MarigotRose]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Where is the boat currently registered/documented/licensed ?

Registered & licensed in Ontario Canada

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by MarigotRose

Registered & doc'd in Ontario Canada

Sorry, that cannot be correct. There is neither "documented" or "Registered" in Ontario.

Canadian vessels are either Federally Licensed or Federally Registered and cannot be both.

You need to sort out what you actually have before going any further.

[MarigotRose]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sorry, that cannot be correct. There is neither "documented" or "Registered" in Ontario.

Canadian vessels are either Federally Licensed or Federally Registered and cannot be both.

You need to sort out what you actually have before going any further.

Hi BoatPoker - appreciate you being thorough. I was just using the terms I recalled were used while acquiring the paperwork from the registering company I used to handle the paperwork
Attached to this response is a snapshot of the Transport Canada Certificate of Registry - can't see doc'd or licensed used in the descriptive text
My document of title is issued to me and my home address as owner based in Ontario

[boatpoker]

OK, You have a Canadian Registered Vessel. It is technically illegal to sell that boat (or any foreign flagged vessel) in the US but there are ways around that. You really need to sell through a broker familiar with such transactions. It can get a bit complicated.

If sold to another Canadian (and handled properly) it's possible that neither taxes or duty would be payable in Canada or the US (as it was when you purchased the boat).

There will be no duty or taxes due in Canada on that or any subsequent sale. Canadian taxes and duty only become due the instant the boat hits Canadian Water.

[MarigotRose]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

OK, You have a Canadian Registered Vessel. It is technically illegal to sell that boat (or any foreign flagged vessel) in the US but there are ways around that. You really need to sell through a broker familiar with such transactions. It can get a bit complicated.



If sold to another Canadian (and handled properly) it's possible that neither taxes or duty would be payable in Canada or the US (as it was when you purchased the boat).



There will be no duty or taxes due in Canada on that or any subsequent sale. Canadian taxes and duty only become due the instant the boat hits Canadian Water.

Thanks for the above details [emoji1360]
I've been reading around and seen that some people advertise "Not for sale in US waters" as a way of negating the marketing being targeted at a US audience.
In checking my warranty of title, it lists the previous owner as being addressed in Europe and doesn't mention his Florida or Chicago addresses.
I can't find any paperwork that proves that US duty was paid on the boat after it was in Florida for so long before I bought it. (I'm just hoping now that there's no outstanding duty being looked for)

Do you know anything about the tactics that brokers use?

I managed to call through to Canadian Revenue to discuss import duty. Turns out that HST(13%) and Duty(9.5%) would be payable if I brought her home. That in fact seals the deal that it's financially impossible for me to do so
CETA only applies if I brought it straight from Europe, and NAFTA doesn't apply as it wasn't North American built.
Between a rock and a sandbar [emoji37]

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by MarigotRose

Thanks for the above details [emoji1360]
I've been reading around and seen that some people advertise "Not for sale in US waters" as a way of negating the marketing being targeted at a US audience.
In checking my warranty of title, it lists the previous owner as being addressed in Europe and doesn't mention his Florida or Chicago addresses.
I can't find any paperwork that proves that US duty was paid on the boat after it was in Florida for so long before I bought it. (I'm just hoping now that there's no outstanding duty being looked for)

Do you know anything about the tactics that brokers use?

I managed to call through to Canadian Revenue to discuss import duty. Turns out that HST(13%) and Duty(9.5%) would be payable if I brought her home. That in fact seals the deal that it's financially impossible for me to do so
CETA only applies if I brought it straight from Europe, and NAFTA doesn't apply as it wasn't North American built.
Between a rock and a sandbar [emoji37]

One method is to sail the boat into international waters to complete the deal then sail back into the US. I am not advocating this but have seen it done several times. There are other methods but online is not the place to discuss them. Find a really good broker.

[MarigotRose]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

One method is to sail the boat into international waters to complete the deal then sail back into the US. I am not advocating this but have seen it done several times. There are other methods but online is not the place to discuss them. Find a really good broker.

I saw a tale today of just that! The detail included taking the days newspaper, a GPS and consulting lawyers who'd perform a "high seas" transaction. There's still a part of me that finds it highly entertaining to envisage this happening, eye patches and parrots being optional and debatably adding or reducing credibility [emoji23]

[nwdiver]

Easiest, list and sell to a Canadian going south or away from Canada. Or a foreign national that will reflag to their country and its thier problem. As stated above you owe nothing to Canada until it touches Canadian water..........this last bit was a sop to the commercial industry a long time ago so they would register in Canada, but as many ships never entered Canadian water they would not pay import duties or taxes.......It didn't work so well we really don't have a merchant fleet.....so now it's used by private boat owners.....

[BernBruce]

I have a similar question. We are Canadian, and bought our 2009 32 ft Seaward Hake in Florida 4 years ago. We did not register it there because of taxes and we planned on bringing the boat to Mexico. When we sailed into Mexico we got a 10 year sailing permit. We now want to sell the sailboat for health reasons and one of our problems is how do we register it.
Also is anyone interested in making us an offer. Would also appreciate advise on the registering part. TIA Bernadette and Bruce

[Divevac]

Per NWDiver, we are Ontarions actively seeking a boat in the 40-45 range for a summer shakedown\famil cruise and delivery to Lake Champlain this summer and on to the Med in 2019. PM me with an equipment list and a phone number and I'll be in touch.

cheers
Dave

[bobinmiami917]

I live in Miami and might be interested in buying your boat. Easy way to transfer is probably to keep the current registration and just transfer ownership. bfranz917@gmail.com