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Old 18-05-2018, 12:29   #61
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
DH
That's a little unfair. The marine insurance contracts are full of terms that are open to various understanding and not easy for a layman to grasp. Voluntary abandonment, immediate notification, reasonably necessary.... for example.
Those are not vague or ambiguous terms at all. That is all very concrete and specific legal language. If you don't understand the policy, then get a lawyer to explain it to you in detail. Worth every penny.

As Trente Pieds said -- understand the policy!! It is a legal contract, and if you properly understand it and then fulfill your own obligations under it, you will get your money.
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Old 18-05-2018, 12:33   #62
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Quote: "I was more interested to hear if anyone has filed a claim with the insurance company only to have it rejected. Or anything of that sort. "

Don't ask such questions of a bunch of strangers on HolyMotherNet. That ranks right up there with objecting to insurance in general, which you say you do.

That paragon of American Free Ennerprize and avariciousness, Malcolm Forbes, printed right on the cover of that hyperbolic echo chamber of entrepreneurship,Forbes' Magazine: "With all thy getting, get understanding!"

Words to live by!!!

Go to your insurance broker - if you have one - a ask to see "the wordings" of a standard yacht policy. Then read them! And read them again. And then UNDERSTAND them.

An insurance policy is a contract covering a bet. The bet is simple: The Insurance Underwriter bets that you won't do something stupid and that Neptune won't make you his plaything. You bet that you WILL do something stoopid, and/or that Neptune and his trident are gonna have a jolly time victimizing you.

If you do do something stoopid, or Neptune gets intemperate - YOU win the bet. If you are a good skipper, which, judging by your post, you are not yet, and you spend 50 years at sea making no mistakes while Neptune lets you be because you ARE good, then the UNDERWRITER wins.

Back to the law of contract: If you understand the "wordings" - the terms of the contract - and you hold up YOUR end faithfully, then the underwriter CANNOT refuse to hold up HIS end! But if and when you claim, you'd better be able to show your mettle!!

So with all thy getting, get understanding!

All the best

TP

This is a wonderful post, with which I have only one small quibble --

Insurance isn't exactly a"contract covering a bet". It's a contract to share risks with a pool of other insureds, with your share limited to your policy value. It is a tool for managing risks. Whether or not you actually have a claim, when you have insurance, you can sleep at night knowing that those risks are covered. This allows you to not worry about them, not plan for them, not tie up cash in reserves to cover them, or and feel confident going into somewhat risky situations (which is any day at sea in my opinion) which you would hesitate doing if you had to suffer the loss yourself.
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Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 18-05-2018, 12:53   #63
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Gee, that's right, we've all just been pissing millions of dollars away when all we got to do is be more careful around "reefs and other obstructions" . I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm cancelling all my insurance on the boats, cars and houses.
These mariners lasted 2 days in their uninsured circumnavigation, didn't hit a reef, just ran out of fuel and washed up on the beach.
Four displaced after sailboat sinks in Pacifica | abc7news.com

Has anyone noticed this boat appears to be a SPRAY replica? That's a shame.. crew is fine.
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Old 18-05-2018, 13:00   #64
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Those are not vague or ambiguous terms at all. That is all very concrete and specific legal language. If you don't understand the policy, then get a lawyer to explain it to you in detail. Worth every penny.
.....
What I said was "open to various understanding and not easy for a layman to grasp". You claim those are concrete terms and very specific, I bet I can get numerous experienced lawyers to interpret "reasonably necessary" differently, even concerning the same event. The terms of any contract are open to interpretation. If they weren't we wouldn't need civil courts.
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Old 18-05-2018, 14:20   #65
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

"I can't get hull insurance as a single hander that goes offshore. "
I've been told otherwise. Going offshore solo won't prevent you from getting insurance. It will, however, usually provide that your coverage only applies when you are within xx miles of the coastline. So, you might have to make land in SF before your policy would resume taking effect, and it might suspend again eight hours after you left port, but you COULD get hull insurance.
Singlehanders simply cannot keep a legally sufficient watch offshore, so it is not surprise insurers won't cover what is formally declared to be an illegal and dangerous activity. Hell, some policies even expressly exclude simple racing of any sort, even beer can racing. You can race--your policy just may not be in effect until the race is over.

As for terms being easily defined and understood? Look to any common automobile policy, which mentions "replacement value" or "market value". I went through that once. My "reputable" insurer said "this is market value, we checked". My state insurance department said "Uh, no, market value means exact same model, exact same condition, based on sales within the past 30 days and within a 30 mile geographic radius." And that difference made a fourfold change in the check they had to write. And the insurer knew damned well that they were trying to flimflam me by using what sure appeared to be the reasonable meaning of the policy terms. Which a layman would never think might be subject to legal definitions beyond "That's about right".
Most insurers say you have maybe 30 days after you take out a policy to change your mind and back out, but they somehow can't manage to let you physically SEE a complete real one, until you've bought it. They know that putting the real terms up front will cost them sales.

Hardhead-
You name a boat for a goddess of magic and witchcraft, and who is surprised when Poseidon gets grumpy about it? I'm just surprised more states haven't required more stringent operator licensing for boats. Yet. And mandatory insurance. Yet.
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Old 18-05-2018, 15:18   #66
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post

...... If anything I see, people with "Good Insurance" taken care of better than I would actually expect.
That is the KEY question but also an insight into the marine Insurance industry.

Less regulated than Health or Home Insurance, it is purely a numbers game where Investors (Names) carry paper on insuring all types of ships and yachts.

If the numbers are good, the claims are processed fairly. However, if it's a bad year, the insurance adjusters are told to sharpen their pencils and delay for any reason.

Better regulated in the US, but outside La La land and with an International incident, don't depend on your insurance coming thru for you.

I would only carry liability and self insure for hull replacement.
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Old 18-05-2018, 15:56   #67
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

No one needs insurance unless they need insurance.
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Old 18-05-2018, 16:04   #68
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote: "...with which I have only one small quibble..."

Oh, really, DockHead :-0! You know as well as I do, that an essential of teaching is to pitch your exposition to the present level of knowledge of your audience. Let's save the hairsplitting for the appropriate 400-level course ;-)!

Cheers

TP
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Old 18-05-2018, 16:12   #69
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
So, what are the issues with this insurer? If it is bogus, is there not a regulatory agency that should be involved, either straightening them up or shutting them down?

Jim
Bit of info here Jim

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-169889-2.html
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Old 19-05-2018, 02:03   #70
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Hi All,

I'm a yacht insurance broker, and wanted to weigh in on this. Insurance is all about protecting what you cannot afford to lose, as well as protecting yourself from any liability that arrises.

A lot of people automatically think of a total loss scenario (Boat sinking, Burning, or being stolen, etc..) when thinking about insurance, but a total loss is rare. The majority of losses are smaller losses such as a lightening strike frying all of the electronics, or a grounding, or damage to the hull, so it is worth asking yourself, if for some reason your anchor breaks lose and you drift into a reef causing 50K of hull damage, can you afford to pay $50K out of pocket to repair that damage? If you cant afford that, then you will most likely have to sell the boat for well under market value.

More importantly than your own investment, is the potential for damage that you cause to other's property, or worse any injury you cause. Ask yourself again, Can you afford to pay out of pocket for hospital bills to the person that you accidentally hurt or property/the environment that you damage....If you can't pay for damages, their lawyers will come after you for anything that you own.

No one likes insurance because it is something that most people pay for their entire lives and never have to use it, but if you ask anyone who has had a claim and been treated well by the carrier, then they will tell you otherwise.

I am happy to answer any and all questions that you have.


Thanks,

Hugo
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Old 19-05-2018, 03:58   #71
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Some years back I did marine insurance investigations (in Canada). I eventually stopped doing them because I was so frustrated. I found elements of fraud in almost every claim from outright lies to efforts to bump up the claim numbers for things that were obviously damaged long before the incident under investigation (the old "plastic bag over the engine intake" was a common one" ).

I routinely recommended denial of claim to the underwriter and they almost always just as routinely paid out. In those days if the claim was not more than somewhere around 40k it simply was not worth the $$$$ to battle someone over a suspicious claim.
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Old 19-05-2018, 04:21   #72
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
What I said was "open to various understanding and not easy for a layman to grasp". You claim those are concrete terms and very specific, I bet I can get numerous experienced lawyers to interpret "reasonably necessary" differently, even concerning the same event. The terms of any contract are open to interpretation. If they weren't we wouldn't need civil courts.
Of course some of these terms are subject to interpretation, but not ANY interpretation. "Reasonable" is probably the most interpreted word in the legal lexicon. Bread and butter of the courts. "Reasonable" has specific legal meaning.

In my policy with Pantaenius, the word "reasonable" appears in a number of places in connection with expenses. This word appears only a couple of times in other contexts. For example, in the policy exclusions, coverage is not provided for damages caused by operation of the yacht by an operator without a license if that is required by the flag state, unless the insured person had "reasonable grounds to believe" that the operator had such a license. This is very reasonable -- first of all, damage which is NOT caused by operation without a license is covered (so if there is a gas explosion for example while an unlicensed operator is in charge of the vessel, then this would be covered since it was not caused by the unlicensed operation); and secondly, if you let an unlicensed person be in charge of the vessel but had a reasonable belief that he did have a license (like, he told you so and had no reason to believe that he was incompetent), then you are covered in any case.

You must take "reasonable measures" to avoid losses which would lead to a claim. That is not hard to interpret -- you can't intentionally run your boat onto the rocks and then file a claim. There may be some gray area where the insurer might complain that you were extremely careless to such an extent that you are not taking "reasonable measures" to avoid a claim, but your ordinary negligence is not enough for them to deny a claim -- that is covered. This is not a loophole and will not cause problems for normally prudent sailors.

A good insurance company will not mess around with you over this sort of thing, if you are just minimally careful and minimally competent. They might refuse to renew your policy after such a claim, however, if they get the impression that you are a bad sailor and a bad risk for them. A bad insurance company might try to weasel out of paying a claim, but even in this case, you can force them to pay through the courts if objectively, the loss was caused without any gross carelessness on your part. A judge will decide what "reasonable" is in this case, not the insurance company.


So like Trente Pieds said -- know your policy inside and out, and ask a good insurance agent or a lawyer to explain anything which you don't understand clearly. 90% of insurance problems are caused by the insured person failing to understand or even read the policy. Another 10% of insurance problems are caused by rogue insurance companies. Both of these risks can be just about entirely eliminated by doing your homework -- first, doing your research and avoiding bad insurance companies, and being willing to pay a little more for insurance from a good company (it usually will cost something, and it is always worth it), and secondly, by really totally understanding the policy so that you don't inadvertently violate the terms.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 19-05-2018, 04:36   #73
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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... if for some reason your anchor breaks lose and you drift into a reef causing 50K of hull damage, can you afford to pay $50K out of pocket to repair that damage? If you cant afford that, then you will most likely have to sell the boat for well under market value.

More importantly than your own investment, is the potential for damage that you cause to other's property, or worse any injury you cause. Ask yourself again, Can you afford to pay out of pocket for hospital bills to the person that you accidentally hurt or property/the environment that you damage....If you can't pay for damages, their lawyers will come after you for anything that you own.
With respect Hugo, this is exactly the WRONG way to think about insurance. You are doing what most people trying to sell insurance do: focus on the potential Impact without rationally measuring the actual Likelihood of the event.

Risk is proportional to the Impact of an event X the Likelihood of the event occurring. If the Impact is high, but the odds of the event occuring are low, then the Risk can be low.

Your scenarios only make sense if a client demands to live with ZERO risk. But real life doesn’t work that way, and no one lives like this. We all accept various levels or risk in most of what we do. Boating is no different, and by all available data, is actually very safe.

The standard illustrating example here is meteor impact insurance; no one buys such a thing even though the Impact of this event would be very high. But as we all accept, the Likelihood of said event is low, so we assess the Risk to be low.

Once risk has been assessed, the next question is the cost-benefit analysis. Is the cost of the insurance worth the potential value? Once this is determined, only then can you make a rational determination as to whether insurance is worth it.

Everyone is different in their capacity to live with risk, and how they measure the cost-benefit. Some of us are willing to accept a higher risk, some a low. Some will have greater financial resources, some lesser. This is why there is no single right answer for everyone.

BTW (as as I wrote earlier), liability is usually considered a good deal b/c it is so cheap. It’s cheap b/c the real risk (for the insurance company) is small. It’s also becoming a defacto legal requirement in many places as more marinas are demanding it as the price of entry.
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Old 19-05-2018, 04:44   #74
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Those are not vague or ambiguous terms at all. That is all very concrete and specific legal language. If you don't understand the policy, then get a lawyer to explain it to you in detail. Worth every penny.

As Trente Pieds said -- understand the policy!! It is a legal contract, and if you properly understand it and then fulfill your own obligations under it, you will get your money.
So...you don't believe that a marine insurer ever gamed a customer on a claim?
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Old 19-05-2018, 04:57   #75
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Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Almost don't want to admit this but probably had over 20 different boats on the water for 32 years and never had insurance and never had any type of accident or damage. I ran aground one time with no damage.

I plan to get insurance for the first time this year to go cruise the Bahamas for 2 months
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