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Old 12-04-2019, 22:46   #46
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

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Originally Posted by crayiii View Post
There is no written agreement. I met him in person in his office and then it's just been email correspondence.
If no exclusive contract to find you a boat, I do not see any problem (both legally and ethically) in working directly with Owner on this purchase

When looking to buy a boat you are usually networking with many brokerage companies, giving them a brief of what your after and budget

The broker that brings you that boat is considered your "Broker of Record" and they work with the sellers broker to make a deal

If you found this on your own, you don't owe this broker anything.
He missed his opportunity!

Only if you get him involved in the actual transaction as legal counsel to set up the terms and conditions of sale, does he deserve a fee .....(not a commission)
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Old 14-04-2019, 10:21   #47
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

NO contract with the so called broker..keep moving an do your thing. Paperwork you can do your self or pay to have it done. Many companies do it for a fee. Survey on the vessel you can arrange yourself. This is business between you an the seller. Payment by bank draft. Good luck!
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Old 19-04-2019, 06:28   #48
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

You don't need a broker. Make the deal yourself, based on a sea trial (bring some knowlegable, like a surveyor) , get a survey, use your bank to close.

I have bought 5 of my last 6 trawler without a broker, they get 10%!
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Old 19-04-2019, 06:47   #49
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

I probably would have told the seller, “work with my broker and pay the fee or I move on”. Dude is probably going to have to pay a broker anyway down the road.
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Old 19-04-2019, 06:49   #50
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

Any contract to buy or sell a boat has a time limit, which is usually 6 months. It usually can be renewed if both parties agree.
In this case there seems to be no formal agreement or written contract. It is polite to inform the broker that you found a boat you like by yourself and that you will not use him any longer (or that you will use him to help you out with documents - but this is up to you). In absence of a formal contract and given the fact that you found the boat by yourself without the help of the broker, I really do not see a legal issue - but I am not a lawyer.
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Old 19-04-2019, 10:04   #51
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

Accepting your statement that there is no formal contract, I think you need to consider if the broker has spent any appreciable time on your search. Many times the buyers brokers will do the verbal discussion to help find a boat, send a few batches of Yachtworld listings, investing a few hours max and then pretty much ignore you, and let you do all the legwork. They specifically do not do a contract to avoid any commitment. If you think about this, it makes sense as most buyers take a season or two or even more to learn the market and what conditions to expect( and get realistic). A broker can not afford to invest much time in this dance and will always work for the sure commission from selling. All that said unless you have time to research and some strong legal or advanced business acumen you would be foolish to make an out of country purchase without guidance. The brokers that do this regularly are few so do your homework. Negotiate a flat fee plus travel expenses with the broker. If the seller will not cooperate in a brokers sale, the price should be adjusted to allow for your extra costs. Just be up front with everyone, it will be challenging enough without adding problems. Also a knowledgeable go between helps keep buyer and seller egos in check and really makes negotiating easier. Good luck.
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Old 19-04-2019, 10:44   #52
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

I bought my first boat, a 42' ketch, direct from a Canadian. I was in the US and imported it myself going though US Customs which was very easy. I walked in to their office and asked. I filled in a simple form and showed them the bill of sale. One thing that made it easy was that, at least at that time, a Canadian-built boat did not require an import fee. I did get an import doc from them. If an import duty was required I would have had to pay that to the US.

The seller and I did all the paperwork ourselves. I had to get the bill of sale and send it to the USCG and he had to delist his boat from the Canadian ship registry. It was easy peasy. I got a cracker-jack surveyor who spent all day on the boat. He is a hard ass as far as finding things, although, like always they don't find everything if it is behind the woodwork or requires tools to get to. I did pay him extra to do a mechanical survey of the engine.

If you do some minimal homework you will find it not all that hard to buy a boat, or to sell it for that matter. I have also bought and sold houses without brokers or lawyers. Some people will not be comfortable with this and I understand that. One thing I think I would want is an escrow service to hold my deposit for a couple hundred dollar fee. They will require the seller to sign over owner ship to the buyer and the buyer to pay the balance of the contract, then they will release the deposit to the seller. The contract is important and some may want legal advice. Even if they have a buyer broker.

My current boat I bought from a seller broker. They assigned a "buyer" broker as my advocate but he was in the same office and I viewed it as a sham deal for somehow managing risk on their part. They recommended a documentation service in Seattle and they did all the paperwork including transfer of the title in Washington state, USCG documentation, etc. I could have done all of this provided the seller did his/her part in a reasonable manner, in the case, the seller broker would have done it.

The selling broker had been trying to sell this "unique" boat for several years as the seller put on an impossible-to-get price. I offered a much lower price and he reluctantly (meaning pissed off) accepted it. The selling broker was to set up the arrangement for a haul-out and survey. The haul-out was fine but the surveyor they recommended ditched me for a bigger boat survey and I had to scramble to find one. I was pissed!! They did not do their job but they said it was my problem. So much for the "help" from my "buyer broker".

Regarding the OP's original question, I wasn't there and didn't hear the conversation but I doubt very much it implied a verbal contract if it was like the every day life of brokers I have seen and I have seen a lot. Trying to find a boat for someone sitting in their office doing some internet searches and talking to other brokers is a cost of doing business and they know they will not always find a deal and get a commission from it.

That is a different story if there was an exclusivity understanding, written especially, but verbal in some cases. I have seen a lot of lazy brokers who will do the minimum in this situation, hoping to get a deal. Like I said, it is a cost of doing business, like marketing and selling on commission in many instances. If I go in to a car dealer and look at cars the salesman does not expect a commission if I buy a car on my own, even if, they do a search for my perfect car with other dealers or whatever. I did use a buyer broker in Denver a couple of times and paid him for his services even though it was all verbal. The understanding was that he didn't earn anything unless he found me a car that I bought.

So, IMHO, there is no verbal contract in most all cases done by walking into a broker office and asking if they know of a boat I would like. If I had agreed to an exclusivity deal (which I would never do except in exceptional circumstances where I knew their service would b extensive and necessary), then I would have gladly (and ethically) paid him/her for their time and efforts. I have worked with many, many brokers looking at boats and they never expected me to pay them if I found a boat through other means. Never!

Others may have had other circumstances but I would say given the OP's limited comments, he has zero need to pay the broker anything unless the broker did a lot more work, like bringing him multiple (or even one perhaps) boats on paper, and setting up showings, help negotiating a deal, not to mention paperwork in closing. Looking up boats with the seller multi-list is a normal thing and not subject to a contract or requirement to pay anything. The broker will not expect that.

If I had any reason to think the broker might expect an exclusive deal, without a written contract, I would tell them up front that it is not exclusive. A better case can be made for a seller broker to expect some payment if a seller finds a buyer on their own. A friend of mine had a listing with a broker but the broker basically did squat and the seller found a buyer himself. He paid the broker but he was not happy about it. Myself, even in this case, would only sign an exclusivity deal for a limited time period. But I would not find a buyer and keep it secret and let the time run out. I would owe the broker.

With my experience, which is limited, but common from what I have seen, buying a boat does NOT require a buyer broker assistance. It can make it easier - sometimes - as I have also seen several cases where the buyer broker did not do a good job and messed up what should have been easy deals.

BTW, I was a licensed real estate broker once and asking a broker if they know of any houses for sale does not imply any contract at all. In fact in most states the regulations explicitly say this and the brokers know this. It has to be in writing via a buyer-broker written contract to prevent any "misunderstandings". Brokers without a buyer-broker contract will be brought in to a deal via an agreement between a seller broker.

If the seller broker tries to keep all the commission, the broker who brings the buyer to the deal, can and usually will sue and win, plus damages and court costs. In these cases, the broker who brought the buyer is actually, by law, also a seller broker and does not owe the buyer any special expectations of working for them. In this case, both brokers are seller brokers and it is buyer-beware. Many brokerages will require the buyer to sign a notice that this is the case, although it is not required.

I don't think there are similar regulations for buying selling boats in the US in most states but have to admit I don't know. I suspect there isn't. I do think there probably is some kind of code of conduct taught and expected in the broker "certification" companies.
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Old 19-04-2019, 12:04   #53
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

Quote: "I don't think there are similar regulations for buying selling boats in the US in most states but have to admit I don't know."

I would think the US situation is very similar to ours. Trading in Real Estate is so flagrant an opportunity for engaging in serious hanky-panky that it has been quite tightly regulated for a long, long time. In this jurisdiction the relevant legislation is entitled "The Real Estate Services Act of British Columbia". It is rather a two-edged sword. It does indeed protect the unwary and the naïve against gross exploitation, save such exploitation as is sanctioned by the Act. It also has the effect of creating a "self-policing profession", i.e. a closed shop for whose members there is no necessary correlation twixt possession of a license (issued by that shop) and competence.

The legal requirements for brokering boats are not nearly as tight.

So I'm back on my hobby horse :-): Anyone who engages a "professional", whether voluntarily to save time and effort, or under compulsion of law, must needs know as much or more about the task at hand as does the "professional". Else he cannot monitor and control the performance of the professional. Any person who does NOT monitor and control the performance of a "professional" he has hired is wide open to exploitation!

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Old 19-04-2019, 12:08   #54
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

Zero obligation to the broker.

That being said, I've been in the same situation and had buyers pay me a small fee to run the entire transaction and offer guidance. For most people buying and selling a catamaran is a one time thing, and a bit daunting.

Just be open and honest with him, and see if you can work something out.

If he dissuades you from the FSBO boat without good reason, then its probably because he more concerned with a full commission than a smaller consultancy fee.

Things like importation and flagging should not be a reason to pursue a foreign flagged vessel as a US Citizen.
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Old 19-04-2019, 16:14   #55
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

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An agreement/contract does not have to be in writing. Although, as this situation amply illustrates, it is always better to put things in writing. But a verbal or electronic agreement is still an agreement, and can be an enforceable contract in most jurisdictions (it’s just a lot harder to prove).
Good range of comments here so I will try not to be redundant. However, I think one point may have been missed. While I agree that a verbal contract IS a contract, any contract must include basic terms and exchange of consideration (something of value from each party). So it all depends on what was said. I assume he mentioned a commission amount, but did he say anything about exclusivity or other terms? If not, then one could assume that a commission on a specific boat HE brokered would satisfy legal exchange of consideration. Exclusivity and other terms are not necessarily implied or required to have a valid contract.

I agree with the idea of negotiating a settlement with a broker in situations like this (in fact I had a similar situation in a real estate deal) IF there was some mention or discussion of exclusivity for a period of time. That is right and ethical. However, if exclusivity was not understood, I would not feel ethically bound. I don't think a court would assume any "industry standard" would prevail since there is no way this could have been reasonably assumed by the buyer. Furthermore, I think both the laws and the courts overwhelmingly place the burden on brokers and agents to eliminate any ambiguity and dot the i's and cross the t's. My realtor told me that we could basically walk away from almost any deal--even if earnest money exchanged and we were technically bound to a contract--because courts are generally sympathetic to buyers, and wary of sellers and their agents. We're in a consumer protection society.
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Old 20-04-2019, 17:21   #56
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

I've moved on to a different buyer's broker. The original broker was okay about it all and just said that he's busy. Honestly, this buying process has been a bit of an eye opener. I wrongly assumed half a million cash would get some attention when looking at a boat but it seems like that isn't the case.
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Old 21-04-2019, 08:13   #57
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

If a seller broker finds a buyer and the buyer does not have a "buyer" broker, then the seller broker gets the entire commission. That's the way real estate works anyway. I honestly don't know what happens when there is a contracted buyer broker but I suspect the 10% commission would be split. If I were a seller broker I certainly would not want give 5% to someone else but I would if no other buyers were available since 5% is better than 0% and an uncertain sale.


From what I have seen, good brokers are busy and poor brokers have time, but it is usually not quality time.



An aside - we have a sales tax in WA state. If I buy a car here I have to pay the sales tax to the state. However, if I buy a boat here, the seller has to pay the sales tax. This favors buyers certainly. I guess that sonce boats are in general much more money, the seller has the cash to pay the state while the buyer is cash poor. I was surprised but happy I didn't have to pay the tax. I do have to pay a registration/use tax each year which gradually goes down but is still a large chunk each year.



Apologies to the OP and you all. I do not mean to hijack this excellent thread.
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Old 21-04-2019, 08:21   #58
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

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. I honestly don't know what happens when there is a contracted buyer broker but I suspect the 10% commission would be split. If I were a seller broker I certainly would not want give 5% to someone else but I would if no other buyers were available since 5% is better than 0% and an uncertain sale.
I think what happens is the seller's broker doesn't forward the offer to the seller.

I've made two offers at what the seller wants and both times they've let the offer expire.

Very frustrating.
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Old 21-04-2019, 10:22   #59
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
From what I have seen, good brokers are busy and poor brokers have time, but it is usually not quality time.
I wanted to add (missed the edit deadline) that the broker I'm using now is busy but he is also very responsive, knowledgeable, and has the patience to work with a buyer that has no patience.

No matter how busy a broker is, they should at least send a quick email to respond to someone they're working with.
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Old 21-04-2019, 12:57   #60
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Re: Buying from owner after working with broker?

Small addendum to Maggie's aside. Paying the SRT and COLLECTION AND REMITTING the ST are two different things. Here in BC, in most kinds of transactions, the seller COLLECTS AND REMITS the ST. However, in regard to yachts, the buyer "pays" the ST, i.e. he REMITS it DIRECTLY to the government. Evidence that "taxes due" have been received by the government must be furnished to Transport Canada in order to transfer license or registration of the vessel to the new owner. This applies to vessels with an engine of 10HP or more.

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