Buyer's Market or Seller's Market ?

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

There are two types of owners I've seen:

a) Owner who can keep paying money for slip fees and maintenance and/or who has a loan out or otherwise is making sure they sell for "x" in order to get the amount they want out. These boats stay for sale for a long time.

b) Owner can't afford payments anymore or is leaving. I knew a guy who was leaving for a job in Alaska and had to get away from the boat. Another guy was going to be crewing a boat in Tahiti and had to get away. Both of those guys ended up giving the boat away. The Alaska guy bought for ~20K and sold for ~2K, and the Tahiti guy sold a $40K boat for $1K.

Sometimes people need to get away from boats fast and they'll do anything just to release their own liability. If you can find yourself in one of those situations you can get a really nice boat for almost nothing.

The other thing I've noticed is that the kind of owner who has the financial means to keep the price high is also the kind of owner who probably performed regular maintenance, didn't defer maintenance, and did proper installs.

And the one that can afford to "pay the rent" on thier boat but wants to get a bigger one instead?

[Patient]

Buyers market for sure.
This NYT article from last year describes the reality that in some states boats are basically third homes in this economy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/business/01boats.html

I am actually ready to buy, but have been taking it slow. Most of my saved searches on brokerage sites have shown a steady drop in offers over the last 2 years, some quite dramatic. I also saw a couple of craigslist ads that had me running for the phone. DIY restoration projects that could no longer be maintained, divorce related, many foreclosures etc. A Bob Perry double ender missing a spar was listed a few weeks ago for so little I did a double take. It was taken by the time I emailed the seller.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Dunno. USA has been out of recession since the end of the First Quarter 2009.

I know that the statisticians have made that claim, Mark, but I would just point out a couple of things about that: 1 - It's an election year, 2 - the NBER is the accepted body making the calls on when recessions start, and when they end, but they do so waaaaaay after the fact.

As a result, they didn't acknowledge that the recession started in the fourth quarter of '07 until almost a year later. Similarly, their recent statement proclaiming that the recovery began last year came well after the date they claim it began.

The reality on the ground (here in the US) is that if this is a recovery, I'd hate to experience anything worse. The economy is still shedding jobs - highly uncharacteristic of any post-WW II recovery. Much more likely is that we are actually in the midst of the second dip of a double-dip recession.

Of course that won't be acknowledged until well into next year, and the current sentiment in the nation of a public experiencing this so-called recovery will be reflected in the outcome of the vote, November 2nd.

TaoJones

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TaoJones

Actually, you've just described a seller's market, Dockhead . . . which means that the sellers hold the power, and a buyer can take it on the seller's terms or move along, because there's someone else willing to do so.

A buyer's market is just the opposite - the inventory of unsold vessels is large and growing, buyers hold the power and, if they're making good offers, they're steeply discounted from the asking prices. If sellers want to make a sale, they must accept the buyer's terms or lose the sale, because there's another seller willing to be more conciliatory.

TaoJones

Yes, sorry, I meant "didn't notice any buyer's market". My boat was put on the market a few months before I bought, I made an appointment to see her, by the time the appointment came up she had already been sold - to a yacht broker. A couple of months later, my Oyster deal fell apart and at that very moment my boat came back on the market -- the deal was made in days. I was lucky that I was able to find the previous buyer who shared his survey with me which saved me enough time to beat the competition -- there were two other conditional offers, and I was able to make mine unconditional since I had a survey already.

As Pete said, lots and lots of buyers in the UK because the pound has fallen in relation to the Euro, so lots of European buyers mucking up the market. Definitely not any kind of buyer's market.

[SaltyMonkey]

Its always been a buyers market. Count up all the boats on yachtworld. Now count up all the ones marked SALE PENDING.

Do you really believe that there are that many buyers out there for all those boats on the market? Do you really believe that a boat is a basic necessity and not a luxury or fashion item? Do you really believe that owners have unlimited capital for maintenance, slip fee, and opportunity lost?

Its a buyers market. There is no other kind.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Therapy

And the one that can afford to "pay the rent" on thier boat but wants to get a bigger one instead?

Either way, if a guy can afford to pay the rent on a boat and have it for sale he can have it for sale for a long time. I know a lady who's had her boat for sale for the last year. She still uses it all the time and even does charters (she's a captain). It seems like one of the smartest things you can do is put your boat up for sale the minute you buy it, so that when an offer comes through at a high price you can move on it. The worst time to sell a boat is when you need to.

[Stillraining]

Dang...I didn't need that visual. Therapy...pretty scary similarities.!

[Stillraining]

Trust me as a self employed person dependent on construction...The term recovery is laughable.

Home foreclosures up through first half of 2009

http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/0...atching-highs/

[rourkeh]

Pretty lively debate guys, and some good feedback.
Interesting discussion about the higher end of the market. That segment is never going to be hit as hard or see the broad discounts that the under $500,000 segment will see for a multitude of reasons. But that said you can still judge the high end by looking at how many $500k+ repo yachts are out there right now. Just go to yachtauctions.com or a similar sight.Most all those boats will sell for around 60% of advertised price
When we were shopping the main reason we made so many offers was we were never offering over 50% of asking price and even then several offers were gladly accepted but failed survey.
By the way the repo that sold for peanuts was a Sweden Yachts 50 in immaculate condition. I sure wish I had stepped up a little more on that boat but that is the nature of sealed bid auctions. Cheers

[gettinthere]

buyers these days are more cautious and therefore won't buy junk. they have the cash to buy a good boat. so good boats are selling at reasonable prices but project boats are sitting and rotting

[zeehag]

i am a 2 boat owner in sin diego. i keep both on moorings. i live on my hard earned ssdi. LOL. i am leaving san diego this winter to cruise my heavy displacement cruiser and am leaving my performance cruising sloop on her mooring with an individual who is interested in her remaining as is , where is. i can do this for a long time. many years. is all goood to me--i dont NEED to take a hugeous loss on my sloop by rushing into a sale i may not wish to run into. as she sits, with her sitter maintaining and watching over her, i dont have to spend any mo9ney of my income on her. what breaks , he fixes and advises me in the process. he knows her faults and weaknesses and still loves her. too bad he cant buy her---- market has been buyers market for a long long time.. was in 2003 when i bought that boat, and it still is , now i am selling her. brokerages do not count.
the heavy displacement cruiser i bought is a project boat--many are selling qs they are exceptionally well priced. i bouht this formosa 41 for 10k. they sell in same condition as this for 42k. i replaced engne, replacing deck backiing plate, laminated to fit bit of inch thick wood that backs the deck for the forestay sail and windlasses..and sampson posts and ....
when i am done i will have put out only part of the estimated resale value, historically, and will have a replacement value that is incredibly reasonable--mine was 168k before owner before me. another i loved inside and out was replacement valued at 250k. go figger. i have great respect for many project boats-- the right one is a dream--- have to shop well, as with everything else in life.

[Rhapsody-NS27]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Yea well...........

It's surprising the similarities in that chart. With the holidays coming up, I would expect a lot of people buying stuff, pushing economic numbers a little higher then everything will probably dive in Jan or Feb. It'll be interesting to see if the similarities continue.

[shadow]

I have a friend like rebel heart, he's a funny old bird that puts his house and yacht for sale every season (high tourist season) and basically puts out feelers to see how the market is.. I call him a spider as he always weaves these webs to see which flies come in.. On one hand, I think it's just odd and funny, but at the same time, I feel for the people, as he has no intention on selling any of it, unless he gets a real crazy HIGH offer.. Funny to watch regardless!?!?

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by shadow

I have a friend like rebel heart, he's a funny old bird that puts his house and yacht for sale every season (high tourist season) and basically puts out feelers to see how the market is.. I call him a spider as he always weaves these webs to see which flies come in.. On one hand, I think it's just odd and funny, but at the same time, I feel for the people, as he has no intention on selling any of it, unless he gets a real crazy HIGH offer.. Funny to watch regardless!?!?

I come from an old east coast Jewish family so getting a reasonable (or better) rate of return on my investments is always on my mind.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Dunno. USA has been out of recession since the end of the First Quarter 2009.

Mark, don't believe everything you read as everything has some kind of a 'spin' these days. Although it's technically true we are in recovery, the positive effects are only being felt by the wealthier folks in America. The other 99% are still in a recession, which is why prices are deflationary.

IMHO, the largest negative factor affecting the boat marketplace (other than folks losing their job) are the bank financing programs. These days banks are now requiring as much as 50% down on boat purchases with an excellent credit score. As you can imagine, the effect of the lender’s policies combined with a recession has been devastating on the American boat market.

Not only aren't boats selling, more and more sellers are deferring maintenence. Even good diesel mechanics are losing their jobs as there simply isn't enough work to go around.

I believe that the $500K and up boat market is relatively unaffected by this mess we're in, as the prospective buyers are in the 1% of America's population that is doing very well in this recession. They simply don't need to haggle and can pull the trigger whenever they like.