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Old 26-02-2020, 09:15   #16
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by fgrzadkowski View Post
My plan is to buy a solid blue water cruiser 45-50ft, refit it if needed, cruise it for 14 months and sell it as quickly as possible (to get the money back). Obviously I want loose as little money on this operation as possible. My budget is up to $250k.

Q: how do I make a million in yachting?
A: start with two million.


The biggest flaws in your plan are:
  • thinking about a refit
  • expecting a fast sale
  • expecting to recoup most of your money
Given your short timeframe and expected fast turnover after, you should only consider boats that are ready to go without refit. As mentioned, you won't get much if any of your refit money back, and refits eat time.

Since you want the highest possible return from a sale, it won't sell again quickly. if you can afford to leave the boat on the market for a year or two, you might get closer to your desired price. But then you have the ongoing costs to hold onto it.

How much are you willing to lose on this adventure? You could easily lose maybe $50k to $100k+ even in a normal market if you need a fast sale, or end up stuck with the boat if you try to sell into a market that's worse off than when you bought it.


Also, as you might have noticed, the economy is a bit wobbly right now. Maybe wait 6 months and check the boat market then.
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Old 26-02-2020, 09:20   #17
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Zadkowski:

You say: "I'm still looking for my perfect boat, and one thing isn't clear for me, hence this thread. My plan is to buy a solid blue water cruiser 45-50ft, refit it if needed, cruise it for 14 months and sell it as quickly as possible (to get the money back). Obviously I want loose as little money on this operation as possible. My budget is up to $250k."

The immediate interpretation of that paragraph is that you are a newcomer to sailing and cruising, which you then say yourself in a subsequent post. Nothing wrong with that. We all started from "square one" and had to learn some expensive lessons along the way.

Over a sailing life that amounts to something like 70 years, I've developed the dictum that no man should spend more money on a boat, buying it and keeping it, than he can walk away from with a smile still on his face. If you can walk away from a quarter of a million bucks, then - oh, well :-)

But rather more importantly, you need to think abut the fact that you are planning, as far as we can see, to SKIPPER a substantial boat with five other people aboard on transoceanic passages. If indeed that is your plan, I would hope that your understanding of what that entails is rather more finely honed than your apparent plan for acquiring a boat.

If you were my sailing student, I could teach you the fundamentals boat handling techniques for getting in and out of marinas, for coming about, for wearing and for heaving to on one day, and the basic stuff about such things as anchoring on the following day. Those things are a piece of cake in a 30-footer, and are, in principle, identical in a forty- or fifty- footer. BUT! It's a fundamental truth of seafaring that as displacement goes up so does the seriousness of the consequences when things go wrong!

To become a SKIPPER, as opposed to a man playing at it, takes a lifetime, and a great deal of what skippers absolutely need to know comes from book-learning. Which is why we have Marine Academies. So I fear your plan as stated is not very realistic.

I have dared speak so boldly because you say specifically that "any advice is welcomed".

You are welcome here on CF, and if we as a forum have any rôle at all, other than casual chit-chat, it is to get novices off to a good start. So if you would like our help in making your plan a success, do ask us, perhaps, how you progress from novice to skipper. Then, after that, we can discuss the ESSENTIAL criteria for selecting a boat for a specific purpose. Those criteria exist independent of budget.

All the best

TrentePieds
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Old 26-02-2020, 09:21   #18
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

All good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Given your short timeframe and expected fast turnover after, you should only consider boats that are ready to go without refit. As mentioned, you won't get much if any of your refit money back, and refits eat time.

Absolutely

Since you want the highest possible return from a sale, it won't sell again quickly. if you can afford to leave the boat on the market for a year or two, you might get closer to your desired price. But then you have the ongoing costs to hold onto it.

You might get lucky but I don't like to plan on luck. If you really want to maximize the sale price when you're done you need to be prepared to keep your money tied up in the boat AND most important, find a cheap place to leave it while on the market in case it takes a while. However unless you haul it and store on the hard in a fairly out of the way location it will still cost at least $300-$400/month in slip fees and a lot more if you're in a major boating area or big city.

How much are you willing to lose on this adventure? You could easily lose maybe $50k to $100k+ even in a normal market if you need a fast sale, or end up stuck with the boat if you try to sell into a market that's worse off than when you bought it.


Also, as you might have noticed, the economy is a bit wobbly right now. Maybe wait 6 months and check the boat market then.
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Old 26-02-2020, 09:34   #19
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

@TrentePieds - thanks for an honest advice. I appreciate it! I'm not saying that I'm a seasoned skipper, but I have sailed a reasonable IMHO amount of miles/hours (~10k miles on northern seas, Med and some on the ocean). Many of them as a skipper.

Having said that I always chartered a yacht and never owned one. That's a new thing for me, hence my clearly naive questions. But one has to start somewhere I have yet to learn about diesel maintenance etc. but one thing at a time.
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Old 26-02-2020, 09:37   #20
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Hello, let me show you a possibility, you might be for a surprise, since i never respond to any of the posted messages or know how to, if you provide me with your email i gladly send you info, Joseph Zawadzki 905-708-9424, joseph.zawadzki@gmail.com
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Old 26-02-2020, 09:59   #21
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

With a $250K Budget (assuming this is the entire budget) you are probably looking at boats priced in the $150K range. Here is some rough math.

Boat Purchase : $150K
Improvements : $25K


Now as others have mentioned, the improvements are likely a 0% return, so if all goes well you would sell the boat for $150K less 10% for commissions or $135K net.

Thus your "non recoverable expenses" for the boat would be $25K (improvements & maintenance) + $15K (selling costs) = $40K

With $250K in budget, after the boat costs you would have $75K to spend, if your total budget needs to account for the $40K in non recoverable expenses on the boat it would leave you with $35K to spend cruising, which is probably close to what it would costs for a family of 5 for 1 year (a lot depends on how much you spend entertaining yourselves).

Thus the NET would be $250K (initial investment) - $135K (in recoverable costs) = $115K to sail for 12 months (or just under $10K / month)

Finding a production boat at 45 ft in this range that is 'ready' shouldn't be too hard.

Here are some examples:
Benetau First 47 : $135K
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...-47-7-3613912/

Bavaria 50 : $158K
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...ia-50-3477151/

Benetau Ocean 48 : $168K
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...ia-50-3477151/
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Old 26-02-2020, 10:06   #22
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephZawadzki View Post
Hello, let me show you a possibility, you might be for a surprise, since i never respond to any of the posted messages or know how to, if you provide me with your email i gladly send you info, Joseph Zawadzki 905-708-9424, joseph.zawadzki@gmail.com
Joseph, welcome to CF

Your first post does look rather spammy, why can you just post what you have to say? that's how forums work.

Pete
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Old 26-02-2020, 10:37   #23
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Sorry that is my first try, and last dinosaur on computer; 37 Irwin MK IV Centre Cockpit, 1976, name " Reflections " located at St.Lawrence Seaway, Iroquois, across Messina NY Canadian registry, price 25,000 US will provide all spects (need help)

Also 40 Avanti express "Nomad" 1997, located on Lake Ontario, unfortunately no more boating
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Old 26-02-2020, 10:55   #24
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

For me, years 3 and onwards have been the best for ownership. Everything works the way I want it, costs (which were high for the first couple of years) drop down to a baseline, and the actual sailing of it is most enjoyable.
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Old 26-02-2020, 11:12   #25
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

For such a short time frame, surely if it Flies, Floats or F..s then renting, not buying, makes more sense??? ��
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Old 26-02-2020, 12:06   #26
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by fgrzadkowski View Post
Guys,

I'm still looking for my perfect boat, and one thing isn't clear for me, hence this thread. My plan is to buy a solid blue water cruiser 45-50ft, refit it if needed, cruise it for 14 months and sell it as quickly as possible (to get the money back). Obviously I want loose as little money on this operation as possible. My budget is up to $250k.

Now, my concern is what's the optimal strategy here. Obviously I can't buy anything new. Should I target top brands (Oyster?) but 25+y old? Should I buy something cheaper (North Wind?) and younger? Or maybe a custom design? Is it more optimal to buy a yacht in poor condition, do a major refit and try to sell for a higher price, or should I look for something after a recent refit?

Any advice is welcomed! Also, if there's already been a similar thread, please point me there - I couldn't find it.

P.S. If this changes anything I'm from Europe and plan to sail Med and Caribbean and back.

Buy at good price

Look for boats that are in survey . To understand what in survey means hire a first class ,hardball surveyor or a buyers representative

Only consider high class yacht designs, from prestige boatbuilders

Avoid teak decks , oddball owner modifications complex systems

Choose the boat with the simplest systems

If you are European avoid the Med and only look in Northern Europe ....Netherlands, Germany , Denmark’s .....purchase a vat paid boat

At present good boats are very hard to find ... tons of old junk around

The sweet spot age wise is + /- ten years old

The great financial crisis hammered the boatbuilding business ...very few boats available in the sweet age range
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Old 26-02-2020, 14:36   #27
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

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Originally Posted by fgrzadkowski View Post
Do you have some thoughts which brands would keep their value well to minimize depreciation?
The brands that would maintain their value somewhat are probably out of your price range. We're talking Swan, Hallberg Rassey, Privelage and Amel. Brands I would consider in a slightly lower tier might include Jeaneau, Beneteau, Moody and Tayana. These are well known brands that potential buyers would recognize. Avoid any one offs or lesser known brands - not that they're not fine vessels, but for your purposes they won't work.

Someone here once said that the best boat upgrades are the ones the previous owner made. Most of the money you throw at a boat will end up in the water.

And don't forget about the VAT. If you hang out in the med too long you could get slapped with a 20% tax which would put any decent 45 to 50'er out of your budget
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Old 26-02-2020, 15:40   #28
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephZawadzki View Post
Sorry that is my first try, and last dinosaur on computer; 37 Irwin MK IV Centre Cockpit, 1976, name " Reflections " located at St.Lawrence Seaway, Iroquois, across Messina NY Canadian registry, price 25,000 US will provide all spects (need help)

Also 40 Avanti express "Nomad" 1997, located on Lake Ontario, unfortunately no more boating
As one techno Neanderthal to another, don't feel bad Joseph. I too am lost with most of this stuff. I have a 6 month old smart phone that still gives me a daily butt whupping. I have a lot of questions but haven't figured out how to post them as yet.
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Old 26-02-2020, 15:58   #29
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

Thank you feel better already, did not expected there are people like me left, done the Great Loop but lost myself long ego and at 77, giving up on flying and boating.
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Old 26-02-2020, 17:41   #30
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Re: Buy and sell in 2 years

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Originally Posted by JosephZawadzki View Post
Thank you feel better already, did not expected there are people like me left, done the Great Loop but lost myself long ego and at 77, giving up on flying and boating.
Found the link to your boat Joe ,very nice 👍🏾
https://www.boatdealers.ca/boats-for...BcjIMBiYSuvzzj
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