Boat Values

[live2kite]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

In the 35-40' market with older (15-25 year) popular brand boats (Beneteau, Pearson, C&C) I think the market has actually come up a little in the last year and has stayed fairly close to the same resale price for the past 15 years overall. I suspect that's partly because of the number of used boats pulled off the markets by Wilma and Katrina, and more so by folks who could no longer afford new and bought up the better used boats instead. Compared to the 1/4-1/2 price market in foreclosed and distressed homes--I don't think most of the used boat market has moved down much at all. But that's just from keeping a very casual eye on the sales listings, not from being in the business.

I wouldn't disagree with listing prices holding steady but since the financial meltdown even the best stuff is not moving and there are extremely few active buyers at the moment. Just my observation. I've looked at 5 boats in the last month in the 35-40 (15-25 year) category and certainly don't feel compelled to make a hasty offer. I don't look at the basket cases regardless of price, or the high prices in a category. I have less $ to spend today than I had last summer and will reflect that in what I feel is fair value. Not expecting a giveaway price, and might even end up paying closer to listing price on something I feel is excellent value in the current market and meets my needs.

[Pblais]

Compared to the 1/4-1/2 price market in foreclosed and distressed homes--I don't think most of the used boat market has moved down much at all. But that's just from keeping a very casual eye on the sales listings, not from being in the business.

Boats never got over valued like real estate / homes did. Boat prices did not soar artificially high. The costs of boat building are not falling. Home prices have nothing to do with boats. Selling your house to buy a boat just isn't the best game in any town right now and might not be for a long time. There isn't a way to make up the difference between the housing market and the boat market. Some shoppers will need to hang on to the house longer to hope to shorten the gap.

I've looked at 5 boats in the last month in the 35-40 (15-25 year) category and certainly don't feel compelled to make a hasty offer. I don't look at the basket cases regardless of price, or the high prices in a category. I have less $ to spend today than I had last summer and will reflect that in what I feel is fair value.

Not being hasty has always been the best choice. Basket cases are best for those that don't have tight budgets since purchases of the heart have a different market altogether. The better boats in the price range you can afford have always been the best choices and they usually cost more than you thought. That has not changed. If you can make an offer and walk away without a boat then you probably are thinking clear. I just don't see where there is a "new strategy" to buying boats. You only want to buy one that works for you - not all of them.

[live2kite]

Originally Posted by Pblais

I just don't see where there is a "new strategy" to buying boats. You only want to buy one that works for you - not all of them.

No new strategy but definitely more mental anquish in establishing a $ value one feels comfortable paying in an economy that hasn't hit a clear bottom yet. Think about it; you're shelling out an extremely precious commodity right now, cash, in a very serious down-cycle that hasn't hit bottom yet, for a discretionairy toy that requires non-trivial ongoing annual expense, that will only depreciate further. No matter how secure we think we are now (job, savings-investments, health, etc) things could easily get worse before they get better. And who's feeling that secure these days??

We've got about 10 yrs of living expenses on hand just in cash/t-bills, (excluding all other deferred and taxable equity investments which are obviously way down in value), no debt at all, and yet we're mentally grappling with a purchase that wouldn't dent those cash reserves significantly at all. The paper loss on the equity side makes ya feel poorer, which we are at the moment. Guess it's a collective emotional state of mind.

[Pblais]

Guess it's a collective emotional state of mind.

It's something everyone has to deal with. It forces you to make decisions and think about things most people have never had to do. You actually are in a position where you can make a serious choice. It isn't easier with a better economy. We are all at some state of insecurity. Sometimes in in your life you can say it does not matter even when it does. You get up in the morning and do what you usually do and you don't have to care about your future. In times of great change it is harder to ignore. There is life changing actions and the insecurity of change that are not about buying a boat. They clearly are harder.

If you would feel better if you had more money then you should wait to decide. The buying the boat part is really the easy part and isn't the real reason you might feel the pressure of an emotional state of mind.

[Exocet]

As has been mentioned, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I dislike asking people how much they paid for anything, they bought it, so obviously they thought it was at least a reasonable deal, mybe more than I would have paid, but then again I did not buy it!
With a budget in mind start looking. Pay close attention to the hull, sails, fittings, lines, and electronics. Does it come with a dingy? Check all through hulls (make sure they are not seized and work freely). How is the standing rigging, are there any leaks, (usually from the deck not the hull). Take a look at the ships log (a well kept log usually denotes a good sailor and hence a good boat). What kind of motor, how old, and when the last overhaul was done (not just the last oil change). Also if there is a tidal grid it is always wise to get a good look underneath, cheking the rudder post and bearings as well as the cutlass bearing. Bring a note pad, jot down any problems found, and now you are ready to approach the owner and can start to haggle. As to the final price, that is all up to you. If you reach an agreeable price, then that is the real value of the boat to you and no one else. However be warned that come time to sell the same boat you will never get the price you fell it is really worth, I mean can you really put a price on you're baby, she's probably the best boat at the marina, I know mine is.
One last tip, walk around the marina and look for the boats that have not move in a while, you know, the ones with all the barnicals and dirty deck. Find out who owns the boat and appraoch them about buying the boat, if the boat has been sitting that long there is a good chance the owner will let it go. It has been my experience that these owners are usually emotionally attached to the boat and have not arrived to the point of actually selling the boat, all they need is a little push. These owners seem to be more interested in the fate of their boat than the price and are more willing to sacrific on price in order to know that their beloved boat will be out sailing gloriously on the ocean.
I've seen some Catalina 27 's with asking price ranging from $5000 to $25,000, however though the hulls are identical, the shape of sails, and equipment vary considerable from one to the other, and in the end the real value is determined at the point of sale, and once bought don't look back, the deal was good for you so eveyone else can just f##k off.
Hope you get on the water...

[nautical62]

I think the big issue in comparing the housing market to the boat market is that boats, unlike homes, don't typically come with a chunk of land. I think in reality, it was land prices that went up drastically in many areas, not the structure itself. An indication of that is when one sees home/property prices increase a result is often that people tear down structurally sound homes to build larger ones. They don't value the home, they value the location. As the saying goes: location, location, location. I think in the boating industry one sees this more with marina and slip fees than with the cost of boats.

I also think the reason for the big decline in home prices in many areas was their over inflated price in years leading up to that. If one looks at the long-run, one will usually see that homes have still increased in value. Where I live, home prices have barely dropped at all, but that's because they never over-inflated. They've been increasing at a fairly steady 3-4% per year for 20 years.

When I was shopping for boats in Florida recently, it was clear to me there were many boats that were selling for less and even more that were on the market that otherwise would not have been due to the economy. I'd say that in 1/3 of the boats I looked at the reason stated by the broker or seller for selling was the economy. I actually talked to one broker a fair bit about the economy and boat sales. His comments echoed for the most part what I saw. He said power boat prices were way down and slow to sell, but sailboat prices had only come down a bit, buyers were a bit more hesitant and there were a few more on the market. Another thing that comes to mind is that the boats that seemed to drop the most were the older, traditional boats needing work. My guess is that this is because for most potential buyers, the cost of their time and repairs hasn't gone down at all. (similar observation to above post.)

The change in price and volume is a function of both supply and demand. My guess is that when it comes to new boats, the supply is much more inelastic than it is for used boats. (I don't think there are large profits or many ares to cut costs of production, though long-term petroleum prices may be an exception). So my guess is that if the economy causes a big decrease in the demand for new sailboats the result on the supply side will be seen more as a decrease in supply than a decrease in price. - Just my guess. I can't see into the future either.

Of course, if the supply drops enough, some of the companies may instead drop out of the market or start buying each other out which could result in all sorts of crazy oligopoly power issues. For the same reasons, I'm curious to see how Sunsail, The Moorings and Footloose all being under the same ownership will affect both service and cost over time.

[s/v Beth]

Can anyone back up the claim that was made earlier on this thread, that only 20% (or less) of the price of a new yacht is materials? That seems like a huge markup.

[hellosailor]

Newt, you're confusing two totally different issues. The percent of a boat that goes to materials, has nothing to do with the other expenses (like LABOR and OVERHEAD) that all add into the total net cost before "markup" to a dealer's net price and a second markup to the retail price.

"Materials" usually means the fiberglass, separately from the winches, the engine, the spars, the rigging, and everything else that is bought as "equipment" and "fittings".

[bella]

Originally Posted by Dan1

Hello All,

I am brand spanking new to your forum but thought I would be brave and ask a very fundamental, relavent, and novish question.

How can I find out the true value of a boat so as to make an offer?

Every time I try to use NADA values the brokers or Owners reject them as too low or they just say they don't apply. I don't want to insult the owners but at the same time; a newbie like me does not want to over spend what money I do have.

Any suggestions?

Yactworld is a good place to start...
I usualy start, if I am looking for someone say a
Pearson 365.. I will ask "how much you got to spend" and "exactly what are you looking for in a boat..size, what do you plan on doing with it.. and so on." to get an idea of that persons needs..
So I have already looked up that pearson.. and know that the average price is around $50-55k. I also know that ALL things, esp boats, are negotiable.. I then start comparing what each boat has aboard, such as electronics, solar panels.. it is very very similar to comping a house really..

IF you go thru a broker..you have t understand it is in that brokers best interest to get as close to the asking price as possible.. they work on commision exaclty like a real estate agent.. OTOH... first questions to ask..
1. why is the boat on the market.. the honest reason.. (it might need a new engine, a divorce.. and so on.. ) all are reasons to negotiate even harder..
2. how long it has been on the market.. the longer its on the market the more you can negotiate downward..

Next.. do NOT jump on the first boat you see... walk the docks, cruise yachtworld and sailboat owners dot come, ebay even.. one thing to understand.. a LOA is not what space you have to live in.. its the LWL.. or waterline lengthing.. my boat has a 10 foot cockpit and a waterline length of 25 feet for a 33 foot boat.. my actual living space is roughtly 10x12 feet.. so look at the layout plans of boats you are interested in..
and some things are totaly deceptive.. take for instance the Irwin Citation 34 and 32.. two feet difference on deck.but at the waterline its 6 inches difference and in price it is, in some cases, as much as 10K more for the 34 from the 32..
and you have to remember that IF you are going to cruise to the bahamas your cutoff for that magic $300 entry fee is 34 feet..
do you single hand? consider something smaller than 40 feet for sure..
Are you someone who likes to putter and can fix or repair anything?
perhaps a low end prices fixer upper... look at the charity sites for a donated boat. or ebay.. or the local newspaper or call the marinas and ask if they have any boats they have repoed for slip fees, and so on..
If you pay more than say 8-10 K for the boat. get a survey that few hundred dollars will come back to you in either a lower selling price or knowing what needs to be done..

a bad engine is a huge price dropper... before you buy make sure that the fuel tank is not integral to the hull that means if ethanol gas gets put in your hull can disintergrate..and that means you have to clean out the tank and put either metal tank in or reglass.. IF the engine is bad a new
Beta (for example) can run about $6,800.. or a used rebuilt A4 (4500 from moyer) or you could get lucky and find a decent used diesel or A4 for $500 or the engine might be rebuildable.. all are factors in the sales price..

If I can be of any help PM me...
'bella

ps... never buy a boat that needs more refitting than what you can get for it by resale.. mine will not sell for more than $15 to 18k.. and that is my refit price.. I paid $1,500 for her..
OTOH.. we, my ex and I, bought a C400 for $125k we put $60k into her refit and upgrade to go cruising.. when we sold her, she was on the market 3yrs and we finally got $125k for her.. its all a crap shoot but the memories and fun were worth that money.. we lost.. or did we....

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by bella

we, my ex and I, bought a C400 for $125k we put $60k into her refit and upgrade to go cruising.. when we sold her, she was on the market 3yrs and we finally got $125k for her.. its all a crap shoot but the memories and fun were worth that money.. we lost.. or did we....

You won

When I bought my current boat the intention was that she will be a keeper. Therefore refit / refurb expenses are largely irrelevent. Plan is to have a very nice and very very sound boat worth.........£25k - and easy to sell. By the time I have finished I could well have spent £20k on her - can never say will never sell, but if I did that is a sum I could easily swallow - even if not happy to do so ........but if I had been looking for a boat to later sell I would simply not have bought this one.........buy to sell or buy to keep - different considerations.......

......and as in your case somethings are beyond simply money.

[bella]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

You won

When I bought my current boat the intention was that she will be a keeper. Therefore refit / refurb expenses are largely irrelevent. Plan is to have a very nice and very very sound boat worth.........£25k - and easy to sell. By the time I have finished I could well have spent £20k on her - can never say will never sell, but if I did that is a sum I could easily swallow - even if not happy to do so ........but if I had been looking for a boat to later sell I would simply not have bought this one.........buy to sell or buy to keep - different considerations.......

......and as in your case somethings are beyond simply money.

agreed... life goes on and, in my case, just gets better!

I purchased muy current boat for $1,500 if I put $10k in her I wil still win.. she was and is a very sound boat.. my biggest problem was the dead engine.. I have one waiting for warm weather to put in..
anything else is small beans.. she was well cared for until she was donated ..they let her sit for 6 mos filling up water until she ruined her engine.. and then another yr and a half under shrink wrap never cleaned the mess or anything.. it took me a week of 10 hr days to get rid of the mold.. 2 yrs later i am still off and on scraping painat on the overhead to paint.. but most of what I have done, will do is sweat equity..

[anotherT34C]

I'm guessing the smart builders find another source of work, like Shannon's factory refurb program.

[s/v Beth]

sailor,
I am not confused with the issues. I produce a transportation product from "materials" and market it. My materials are a bit larger part of the entire price, so I was trying to validate that number. I am familiar with businesses and their markups. I was just not aware that materials in yachts were so cheap.

[Pblais]

I was just not aware that materials in yachts were so cheap.

For the boat hull it's true. A bare hull is mostly worthless in terms of materials. For the gear attached it is very much the reverse. Many items like winches are precision machined in low volume production using specialty materials. That idea continues as you add each part to an unfinished hull. The tremendous amount of labor in a boat is generally more than a house. Most all the processes are hand labor intensive and cut across a very wide variety of specialized trades.

There is nothing about the current economy that indicates the cost of making boats has come down what so ever.

[sailorboy1]

In going back to the value vs price question; I just got a "fair market" price from BoatUS on a used Pearson I've been looking at. The BoatUs price was about 15% less than the current asking price (and the boat is the lowest priced one of this Pearson model on Yatch World). I'm gotten price info from BoatUs on I think 4 boats now and they all have come back 15-20% less than the listed asking prices.