Boat Values

[Dan1]

You bring up an interesting point that I would like to ask you.

Just about every boat that I inquire about I go ahead and ask if it has been surveyed lately and if the Owner would be willing to share the survey. 100% of the time my answer has been - "No, but don't worry. We have a local surveyor that we use all the time and we can get it surveyed for you if you would like." At that point I usually decline the offer.

My question. Would you use the surveyor provided by he broker?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Herbseesmoore

None of the ads say tired old dirty boat, unfit to go to sea, are you insane if so call...................

More than a hint of truth in that one

BUYER BEWARE, maybe it sounds better in Latin, does anybody know?

Caveat Emptor. Yeah, I think it does sound better

[Herbseesmoore]

There is serious money at stake. Please get your own surveyor. This is our life savings and right now we are out about $3000.00 USD. Thats just looking, shopping, trying to buy. I'll admit I have made some errors in judgment, but the adds are really bad. So steal yourself when you pull up to the dock. When the broker arrives, shake his hand, then put up your shields, take everything with a big grain of salt.
Ok, there was this really nice broker up in Charleston, his name is Ed James at Ashley Yacht sales. His boat was a compromise but is still a possiblity.

My surveyor understands our situation, I've used him on both boats, he earns his money, no quick looks. You have to have somebody in your corner.

[Herbseesmoore]

Of course the boat last week had been survey, it was being taken in trade, the owner was trading up. And of course the broker avoided my direct question when I asked about his survey, until mine was complete, then it was "oh my survey didn't reveal a bad cutlass bearing" but someone did mark with chalk 2 small delams in the hull below waterline. My surveyor laugh, liked the assist. Not a deal killer anyway.


The owner was trading up to a much more expensive boat, so I was hoping he had the mullah to care for his trade in. I was so wrong.

Each time the wife and I remain optomistic as we travel to see each boat, long hours in the car talking about our sailing dreams, boats, remembering our own adventures. Who can fault us for being a bit emotional about the big event?

[sctpc]

Herbseesmore I agree its dammed expensive look for boats but I can up with a way to save money (I dont know if anyone else has done it but I thou rt of it not got told to) I ring a local surveyor direct and ask them to do a mini survey and if they think its any good I will get them to do a full survey when I fly in to look at the boat. I have found even the ones who are good friends with the broker have told me the truth as everyone so far have said heeps of problems and if I realy did want to go ahead to not mention the problems strat up, or just dont botther. the most I have been charged was $100 but most have been free but if i had to fly in it would be at least 1k + each time.

[Herbseesmoore]

thats a good tip, i'll keep it in mind.

Thanks

[Chantyabc]

Hi I amin the finance industry and the way we determine the value of a boat is by using NADA or Buc Value. If the boat is not listed in either we check boats of the same year make and model check their selling price take the average and 85% of that would be the determined value. Hope this helps. Thanks

Chanty

[hellosailor]

Chanty, nothing personal but would that be the same finance industry that gave us the current mortgage and home loan crises by carefully valuing homes in a similar critical way?

That value is good enough if your only purpose is loaning 80% of it and charging off bad loans into the price of new ones, but for most boat buyers I would think those numbers aren't good enough to make up for the differences in individual boats. Especially when buyers can't just charge off losses the way the finance industry does.

NADA and BUC are better than nothing, but in both cars and boats many people have seen them quoting far wide of the mark too many times.

You guys can afford to be off by 20-25% once in a while, since the odds are still that one error won't be the boat that defaults. For a buyer? There may be no easy recovery from overpaying that much on a boat. Aside from figuring out a way to pay the extra money to the loan company.

Totally different playing field.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Totally different playing field.

Would that be the field of the "haves" and the field of the "have-nots", as in using golden rules?

[D&D]

Is anyone still tuned to this thread? The last post was into the 'credit crisis', but just before the proverbial really hit the fan. So we might expect there'd now be a few more distressed sellers and probably a few less cashed-up buyers, but life goes on and there are no doubt still good boats for sale and interested buyers around.

We're interested buyers, although hammered by recent events (like everyone) so probably now with less to spend. We'd be grateful if anyone can offer any insights into the particular impacts of recent events on us and on other buyers elsewhere...and, of course, on sellers. Some thoughts...

What's happening to the prices of new boats? We see comments suggesting the price of new boats is around 10-15% materials (probably not changing much recently, especially as the price of oil seems to be a bit more rational these days?) and the rest labor. If labor is being priced down in this market as it certainly is in many sectors of production, could that possibly mean downward room in the new boat price lists?

Currency movements will be relevant too...good for the Americans (for now anyway) but probably not so good for the rest of us? How are the American builders meeting the hungry sales efforts of overseas builders?

The boat market (both new and used) appears VERY quiet here (east coast Australia) but so far there doesn't appear to be much sign of a surge in distressed listings or sales. Australian-made new boat prices are horizontal (with occassional signs of orders being withdrawn suggesting more supply capacity) and the importers are, for the moment, still working on their plans and updated price lists. What's happening elsewhere?

[nautical62]

I recently went through the boat purchasing process again and had been watching boat prices closely for a couple years. My feeling about the NADA and BUC values is that they can give one a beginning point, but they are somewhat limited. Compared to vehicle values I think boats being sold are much more limited for any given model, especially given regional differences, and vary much more than vehicles in their condition or work needed. For these reasons, I feel any average of past boat selling prices may less accurately reflect what you may be able to purchase any given boat for. I also feel these values have not kept up with the changing economy. For the models I was looking at anyways in Florida., many boat were clearly selling below blue book.

In addition to the blue book values, I look at the price point at which other boats of the same model tend to get offers or sell at, how long a boat has been offered at that price, the curb appeal of the boat, and how much work I need to put into it for my needs. As a buyer, the more boats you have, to consider, the less attached you become to any one boat and the more time you have, the more likely you will be to get a boat at a lower price. (I even walked away from one boat after the survey.) Even after making an offer on the boat I recently purchased, I continued to look at other boats, and I made sure the broker knew this. I never talked to my friend about how excited I was about any boat in front of the owner or broker.

In terms of how to choose a surveyor, that can be a tough call. I think it's certainly best to do the research and pick one on your own, but what to do when you can't find any information is a hard choice. On my last boat, I came up with about four names (provided by my insurance company) and asked the broker what his experience was with each. I didn't just let him pick a surveyor, but I felt I knew him well enough by that point that I'd get some honest feedback from a question like that and as it turned out, I got a surveyor I was extremely happy with. Had I been looking at 300K yachts instead of 30K, I would have put a lot more effort into that process.

[Celestialsailor]

Interesting topic now that we are in this Reccession/Depression...There, I said it! Home prices, here at least, have bottomed out. This is reflected in the fact that the prices have not changed for about 4 months and the inventory of houses are now on the decline. Boats however are a luxury item. You must have a surplus amount of cash or credit to buy one. Not too many people in that category. Since I am a recent buyer, I will give you my recent experience. I'm a little cash strapped but decided I wanted a smaller cruiser. For me, I felt a Rawson was the best choice. I found a Pilothouse 30 in New York priced at less than 1/2 of what it would go for on the west coast where they were built. I inquired to the Broker why this was. He told me that people just had not heard of them and looked at it as if it was a one of. I then looked into trucking it to Ca. where I would keep it. Turned out it was $5,500. One of the shippers asked me what I was going to offer and when I told him, he just laughed. Being in the business, he hears what things are really selling for and told me to offer 2/3 of the asking price. I thought the Broker would tell me to jump in the lake for such a low offer. But instead, 20 minutes after I e-mailed off the offer, he responded with "offer accepted". So the trucking was a bargain in more ways than one. I really wasn't looking to be an opportunist but I was looking for a good deal if not only for the reason of my personal finances. I'm happy with my purchase.

[hellosailor]

"If labor is being priced down in this market as it certainly is in many sectors of production, could that possibly mean downward room in the new boat price lists? "
In a word, no. Boatbuilding is substantially SKILLED LABOR, if you use illegals from the corner pickup site they tend to screw up the build quality and then you go out of business.
If anything new boat prices will push UPwards, because volume is down. And whenever sales volume is down, you have to mark up the rest really really higher in order to make up for it--if you want to stay in business at all. If you can. Dealers may be willing to sell at a lower profit in order to get rid of inventory that they are paying finance charges (floor plan) on, but they can't afford to stay open unless they still make a profit. And with reduced volume, that will mean pushing to keep every buck too.

[Pblais]

If anything new boat prices will push Upward, because volume is down.

It may not move much either way. I fear some of the smaller volume boat builders may become history. In used boats from folks I've talked to the boats that are really of decent quality and not hideously priced (<$200K) are not selling easily. Most owners are keeping the boat rather than give it away. I wouldn't sell now. Down markets have a lot of problems that don't really work well for sellers or buyers. The uncertainty drives down sales except on boat over 1/2 million dollars. The lack of credit hurts all the manufacturers and may yield a few fatalities by next fall.

If anyone is actually able to buy a boat now I would say you can be more picky and have less pressure, but basic prices won't have moved a lot. There was good deals to be had last summer so they are still out there. I just don't think you can expect to steal any for a lot less right now. If you could have closed a deal on a specific price last spring it would still be good now. There is a general myth that this is a time when prices fall even more. Circuit City liquidators didn't lower any prices on most of the big ticket items. On new boats there won't be great savings except for add ons / extras. If the sellers could crank up a little volume they might be able to offer some deals with hope for the future. They can't see the future right now so they won't be giving away the store.

[hellosailor]

" Circuit City liquidators didn't lower any prices on most of the big ticket items. "
Dunno, Paul. That's something else entirely, the four companies who are liquidated the CC stores are taking advantage of (frankly) dumb rubes and auction fever, which has been a good way to sell things to the public above market price for the last 25 years. With boats, you don't have the same auction fever--except at the auction and salvage houses that have popped up.

In the 35-40' market with older (15-25 year) popular brand boats (Beneteau, Pearson, C&C) I think the market has actually come up a little in the last year and has stayed fairly close to the same resale price for the past 15 years overall. I suspect that's partly because of the number of used boats pulled off the markets by Wilma and Katrina, and more so by folks who could no longer afford new and bought up the better used boats instead. Compared to the 1/4-1/2 price market in foreclosed and distressed homes--I don't think most of the used boat market has moved down much at all. But that's just from keeping a very casual eye on the sales listings, not from being in the business.