Boat Values

[Pblais]

I think 4 boats now and they all have come back 15-20% less than the listed asking prices.

I'm not sure there is a difference at all. The two are very much unrelated. Average prices from multiple perspectives don't really have to agree. I'm not sure that is anything at new. BoatUS is based on claims of damage. That is what they protect. Not all claims are 100% destruction. They really don't care what you might ask as a sale price. Insurance prices are not about "value" they are about damages claimed vs damages paid. The company always wins. They work like Vegas, only better.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by bella

agreed... life goes on and, in my case, just gets better!

I purchased muy current boat for $1,500 if I put $10k in her I wil still win...

Hey Bella, when it comes time for my next boat, would you mind doing the negotiating?

[s/v Beth]

Thanks Paul for your perspective. If you were to buy all the components of a yacht, without any of the assembly required, what would it cost you? I mean can I renovate a yacht for 20% of its new valve (with new winches, rigging etc)?? This would be useful to know when you are looking at someones project.
And thank you for this exercise.

[Pblais]

I mean can I renovate a yacht for 20% of its new valve (with new winches, rigging etc)??

Nope. Basic rule with used boats is you pick a decent boat in good shape that passes the survey with nothing major. This would not be a project boat. Then add 20% after you negotiate a fair price. You spend the first 5% right out of the slip, then over the next 9 months you find all the rest of the stuff. Every year something needs to be replaced or overhauled. Normal stuff takes a lot of time even if not a lot of money.

I can't see how anyone can make a project boat pay unless you like working on boats more than sailing them. Many people do like doing it and hey it's a hobby and nothing says how you are are supposed to enjoy it.

The "project" part of boating is very expensive not including your time. Even a project boat needs all the normal things tended to as well plus all the projects. New canvas, sails, and interior for me would be more than 20% of purchase price. 20% usually just covers the minor things plus the carry on gear you have to buy. Price a good set of dock lines, fenders, and chafe gear. The simple stuff like boat hooks, PFD's, hand held radios, and such add up fast.

For a project boat you need several thousand in tools and equipment plus access to a shop. Parts and supplies are never ending. You get to know the FedEx and UPS drivers families.

[anotherT34C]

I've read a few people's overhaul and refit stories with interest over the years. It does seem very possible to buy a good condition used boat and pay to bring it up to 'like new' condition, and have the total cost be less than the purchase price of something factory new. Of course, if you were to try and sell, you wouldn't be able to recoup anywhere near the cost of your upgrade, where if you buy new, depreciation seems to just about follow inflation (maybe 4% after the initial 'off the showroom' drop).

I have no real data to back this up. It's only an impression I have after reading about people's experiences.

[hellosailor]

"I mean can I renovate a yacht for 20% of its new valve "
I would guess the materials--from repainting the hull and deck, new winches, new sails, new rigging, new engine and electrics, etc--would probably cost you 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new boat would cost. Adding the purchase of the used boat, and the time for labor, probably would put you 30% OVER the cost of simply buying a clean used boat.
There's a wide range in all the numbers. The folks who find a bargain are in the minority. The folks who sink five years of all of their spare time into a project, another minority. The folks who can pull a rabbit out of a hat--or just beat the typical "clean used boat" market--are probably outnumbered by the folks who try to do just that, and wind up taking a bath on it instead. Selling the half-refinished boat at a loss, or eating major expenses on the job.

It isn't that you can't do it--just that if oyu have to ask about the costs, you probably don't have enough knowledge about the task to be sure of finding that rabbit in the hat. As Bullwinkle kept saying to Rockie, "Hey Rockie, Wanna see me pull a rabbit out of my hat?" and perhaps you've seen those results too.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Yer buy a boat at a decent price, knowingly put another 25% into her making a "Good one" to your tastes. Use her and get the value out of the money over a number of years and then decide that instead of another refurb (of some sort) on this boat you fancy a change.....and then sell her at a price similar to what you bought at. As a good boat, but once again needing some refurb / updating.

Have you lost the 25%? In cash terms yes. But you got the use out of that money / the gear etc you bought - whether that is enuf value to justify depends on circumstances. and after all little is free in life.

[anotherT34C]

I think it's more or less something like this;

25 year old cruising boat, good condition: purchase price $130K. refit to like-new: +$150K. resells for $160K (still in like-new).

New boat: purchase for $350K. resells for $330K.

Which scenaio is better? Probably depends on whether you plan to resell anytime soon. The smartest route is probably to try and find the like-new 25 year old horse with the $150K refit, whose owner just had a sudden heart attack.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

try and find the like-new 25 year old horse with the $150K refit, whose owner just had a sudden heart attack.

Just after he got the bill?

[Greenman]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

I think it's more or less something like this;

25 year old cruising boat, good condition: purchase price $130K. refit to like-new: +$150K. resells for $160K (still in like-new).

Damn you're killing my dream! How about:

25 year old cruising boat, good condition: purchase price $65K. refit to like-new: +$35K. Then never sells, just sails away?

To be honest if I have to wait to buy a $150K boat WITHOUT going in debt, I will never go.

I suppose we all can't be as wealthy as we wish Then again the lotto 6/49 is this weekend

[anotherT34C]

Mileage varies per cruising plans. My example boat is something like a 1980's Valiant 40.

I'm with you on sailing away and never sell. I plan to be the guy with the like-new old boat who dies of a sudden heart attack. Someone 50 years from now is going to be very lucky.

[Pblais]

I plan to be the guy with the like-new old boat who dies of a sudden heart attack.

OK, who wants to be the guy that buys his boat? The key is you need to buy it before his wife leaves it tied to a dock in Florida for three years.

[lagoon100]

Hi

How much would you guys guess that a 44' Sailing Catamaran is losing in value each year?

Is i some how correct to calculate 4% per year, off course we are asuming that the vessel is well maintained.

Looking at Lagoon 440 or Voyage 440 between 3 to 6 years old.

And are you expecting the prices to reduce significant due to economic crises?

Best regards

[JiffyLube]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"I mean can I renovate a yacht for 20% of its new valve "
I would guess the materials--from repainting the hull and deck, new winches, new sails, new rigging, new engine and electrics, etc--would probably cost you 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new boat would cost. Adding the purchase of the used boat, and the time for labor, probably would put you 30% OVER the cost of simply buying a clean used boat.
There's a wide range in all the numbers. The folks who find a bargain are in the minority. The folks who sink five years of all of their spare time into a project, another minority. The folks who can pull a rabbit out of a hat--or just beat the typical "clean used boat" market--are probably outnumbered by the folks who try to do just that, and wind up taking a bath on it instead. Selling the half-refinished boat at a loss, or eating major expenses on the job.

It isn't that you can't do it--just that if oyu have to ask about the costs, you probably don't have enough knowledge about the task to be sure of finding that rabbit in the hat. As Bullwinkle kept saying to Rockie, "Hey Rockie, Wanna see me pull a rabbit out of my hat?" and perhaps you've seen those results too.

I agree with you about the 30% factor, but in my case it was more like 36%. The boat was pretty clean for a boat it's age (even for newer boats), but it needed some updating and face lifting. I had the money and the time when we bought it, but I had most of the work done by professionals.

[hellosailor]

Lagoon-
"Is i some how correct to calculate 4% per year,"
I would guess not. Linear depreciation assumes things like a steady resale market, and the boating market has been anything but. First off, you can throw out maybe 10% ? in the first 30 days or so. The change from "new" to "barely used" is going to be more than 4% up front.
After that, a lot is going to depend on wear and maintenance (five years can consume a set of sails--but some folks think 15 year old sails are good enough for what they are doing) and then there's the market. I think the big cats are gaining market share, but any recreational boat over 28' or so, is only 10% of the market to being with, and it will be very sensitive to the economy. When petrodollars go up and FRP resin prices skyrocket, replacement costs skyrocket, so used boat prices stay high. But if people can't afford those double extra wide berths for cats...prices may go down. Add a strong hurricane season (if a dozen boats are wrecked, how many used replacements can be found for them?) and couple of other flyers...and I'd hate to guess at a linear depreciation on boats.

If you are buying a new boat, all you can presume is that at least half of your money will never come back, and whatever does come back you look at as a great bonus. If you are shopping to buy a used one--all you can do is look at market prices, and see what the market is for that particular boat. When there aren't many made, and the reputation is strong, the prices stay up.