Boat Financing Sucks

[Icetug]

Since I am talking about passage making I stand by my statement. On a passage you are at the mercy of the winds current direction. If it happens to be on a beam reach and fresh then maybe you can make up some time. If you are beating then you will lose time. If it dies then you stop. Since I am talking about sailboats of a size that a person normally cruises on (30-45 ft) unless you are surfing your hull speed is limited to 7-9 knots, and you can't surf for 60 minutes of every hour of the day. Most sailors on a sailing passage would be thrilled to cover 120 miles in a day, 5 whole knots average. Even if you were to average 7 knots you would only make 168 miles. Cherry picking your boats fastest speed over a particular days sailing is no way to plan a passage.

And no one with average means will be able connect at a reasonable data speed while sailing offshore. That pretty much rules out pounding out code on the passage.

[Icetug]

It is VERY roughly 1000 miles from St. Augustine FL to New York City. 1000 miles divided by 14 days = 71 miles a day. 71/8 knots= 9 hours of steaming. Not counting stops for fuel, anchoring or mooring, underway preps That is a grueling pace day in and out for one person and no picnic for two or three. Face it folks, travel by boat is a patient persons pursuit.

[hellosailor]

Or, you grab a dock rat looking for a ride.
1000 miles / 8 knots = 5.2 days, if you stay outside and simply sail non-stop. Given the right wind and waves...much easier than doing inlets and (shudder) traveling in waters less than 100 fathoms deep.(G)

(If the water depth is less than masthead height, it IS possible to roll the boat and go aground by the masthead, right? (G) )

[kevingy]

Originally Posted by Icetug

I have no idea how many hours a week the original poster works at home as a programer but, as a professional mariner for almost 30 years I do know how many hours it takes to move boats on the water.

Icetug, you are making a lot of wrong assumptions. As a professional programmer for more than 15 years I do know how to do my job, how to work with my employer, and how to work while persuing other goals.

I (the original poster) try to work a typical 40 hour work week, but hardly ever 9-5, Monday-Friday. It's not uncommon to work 18 hours one day a 2 the next. I have all of the flexibility I need or want. I've also been with the company long enough that I have copious amounts of vacation time, and I acrue more every week. I have maxed out the amount of vacation time I am allowed to have. I am required to take one day out of ten off. Rather than wasting a day at a time, I try to take one week out of eight off. There is no reason that I couldn't shape my "vacation time" around my cruising schedule needs.

Originally Posted by Icetug

Cruising is not a part time activity. You can liveaboard and not cruise and work from home just fine if you can get a fast connection to the web. You can cruise and anchor out in odd places and get spotty and slow wireless web connections or most likely no connection at all. You can hop from marina to marina and usually get some type of wireless solution to allow you to transfer data at an acceptable rate.

I do not need a continuous Internet connection, nor to I need a fast connection. I can carry all of the code with me, make the modifications I need, then send in the changes. I can send in code once a week, when I have a connection. Occasionally visiting the local Internet cafe on shore or leeching an unreliable transient wireless signal will work just fine.

Ideally, I agree that it is better to cruise without working. After all, who wants to work? I'd rather just laze than toil. correct me if I'm wrong here, but not all cruisers have a trust fund to finance their travels. Not all cruisers have a hefty retirement fund to live off of. It seems to me that most are living on a shoestring, picking up work where and how they find it to keep them going. How is that any different from continuing to work the job I have (with amazing flexibility, good pay, insurance, 401K)? Should I start tending bar from island to island for minimum wage plus tips instead?

Originally Posted by Icetug

You can not move your boat in the morning, find a safe anchorage with good data coverage, and then write code all afternoon while you sit in your flip flops.

Why not? That sounds like a fine plan to me. Also, your statement seems to make the unreasonable assumtion that the boat moves every morning. My plan for cruising was to find a nice spot and stay for a week or more, getting to know place, before moving on.

Originally Posted by Icetug

I fear that the OP has an unreasonable expectation of what is possible. Boats are slow, very slow..... It would be unreasonable to think you can move a sailboat up the ICW more than about 40 miles a day for days at a time without severe fatigue. It isn't just the speed of the boat, hauling the anchor, wating for bridge lifts and traffic, finding an anchorage, and fueling all take huge amounts of time. If someone plans to follow summer up and down the coast every year they should expect that during that transit their full time job is professional mariner. The move from even Northern Florida to Long Island Sound will take about a month of being underway every day on a sailboat under power, no breaks, no time to loiter.

Why does the trip need to be made in a month? Perhaps a leisurely three months would be a better estimate. Is your experience as a professional mariner setting a more aggressive schedule for me than I would actually follow?

Originally Posted by Icetug

Why am I using the under power example? The OP doesn't mention having a partner in this plan so I have to assume he is single handing. You will not be able to single hand nonstop up the coast of the US under sail without going very far offshore without serious danger from commercial traffic. Also, no sailboat routinly sails faster than it motors so the 40 miles a day is 8 hours of motoring a day.

Huh? The first line of my first post says "Eight months ago, before my wife and I decided to cruise..."

[Icetug]

You have it all figured out already. I'm out of this one.

[live2kite]

Originally Posted by kevingy

I think most people live in fear. It looks like you may be one of them if you can't let go of 10% of your savings to follow a dream. I'd rather work every day of my life and live while I'm alive than do what to many of my family members have done, which is work and plan all their lives for retirement just to die before retirement or die shortly after retirement. I guess I'm living in fear too and that's what I'm afraid of. Whereas most people avoid risk to manage their fears, I'm taking on risk to manage my fears.

Yep I'm just livin in fear. I was terrified when I started my biz and even more scared when I sold it and semi-retired to the beach. Now when I muster up the courage I tiptoe outside and play with my little kite below.

Sorry for the sarcasm but living in fear and living below your means are two very different things. To be honest I'm already livin my dream and god knows I've taken plenty of risks. I just like to do them in a frugal way. If I don't buy a cruiser right away I've got half a dozen boats I can crew on until I do.

Best of luck in pursuing your dreams and if your interested in some variety in managing those fears with sailing, stop by and I'll be glad to sign ya up for our intro kiteboarding course (promise I won't make you do this on the first lesson).

[kevingy]

Originally Posted by live2kite

Sorry for the sarcasm but living in fear and living below your means are two very different things.

If what you got out of all this was that I'm living below my means and am just upset about it, I seriously misrepresented myself somewhere. I am by no means living below my means. Had the boat loan been approved, I still would not have been living below my means. The only issue with financing was cash on hand after the sale. The lenders thought I was using too much of my savings, leaving what they considered "not enough". I'll have the amount the bank said I should have saved in about two more months. If I were living below my means, I wouldn't be able to save the additional thousands of dollars they're looking for in such a short time. All along, the idea has been to pay off the 20 year mortgage in 3-5 years and cruise while doing so.

We are in a position to either stay on land where we are, continue to pay rent, save for the next ? years, and buy outright OR get a boat mortgage now, not pay rent, pay off the mortgage in ? years, and be on the water now. Honestly, we go back and forth as to what the right path is, and there are issues more important and more daunting than financing - kids & family. Financing is just money.

[Tempest245]

[quote=grunzster;263706]Icetug,

I'm a newbie, and never taken the trip myself (next month will be my first), but that estimate seems a little extreme. I know a couple who take the trip to NJ every year, and they estimate it at about 10 days, and they really don't seem to be the type to push too hard. I know someone else who's also done the trip many times, who says about 14 days from Southern FL to NJ, without pushing, 16 days if you want to allow time for loitering. The sound really isn't that much farther, unless you're talking about traveling the outside all the way around the East side of LI.
quote]

Grunzster,

I've done the trip from Annapolis to Jacksonville in 9 days and it was a push. All of it was done inside, except the offshore passage from the Cape Fear to the St Johns river. We couldn't get outside sooner due to a Nor'easter blowing. Once out there we had 22 knots wind and 6-8 foot following seas. No way would I have beat all night against that, by choice.

The 1st leg was non-stop from Annapolis to Norfolk. It was just 2 of us, both pretty competent sailors. We weren't stopping to smell the roses.

If a couple is doing this trip in 10 days from Southern Florida to NJ...I've got to imagine that it's all done outside and that they are tired when they get there.

If this is your first trip, I'd plan on more than 10 days.

[off-the-grid]

[quote=Tempest245;265231]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Icetug,

I'm a newbie, and never taken the trip myself (next month will be my first), but that estimate seems a little extreme. I know a couple who take the trip to NJ every year, and they estimate it at about 10 days, and they really don't seem to be the type to push too hard. I know someone else who's also done the trip many times, who says about 14 days from Southern FL to NJ, without pushing, 16 days if you want to allow time for loitering. The sound really isn't that much farther, unless you're talking about traveling the outside all the way around the East side of LI.
quote]

Grunzster,

I've done the trip from Annapolis to Jacksonville in 9 days and it was a push. All of it was done inside, except the offshore passage from the Cape Fear to the St Johns river. We couldn't get outside sooner due to a Nor'easter blowing. Once out there we had 22 knots wind and 6-8 foot following seas. No way would I have beat all night against that, by choice.

The 1st leg was non-stop from Annapolis to Norfolk. It was just 2 of us, both pretty competent sailors. We weren't stopping to smell the roses.

If a couple is doing this trip in 10 days from Southern Florida to NJ...I've got to imagine that it's all done outside and that they are tired when they get there.

If this is your first trip, I'd plan on more than 10 days.

It will be my first, but the captain who's helping me has done this trip many times. The rough plan is to try to do as much of it outside as possible and then go in at Beaufortor Hatteras.

I really don't get the huge difference in opinions I'm getting on this one, though. Was talking to someone at the marina today who's done the trip, and he also said 14-16 days should be enough.

[Tempest245]

Hi Grunzster,

16 days sounds more like it, providing you have decent weather and no malfunctions along the way. It's still a push. Personally, I build time into my schedules for bad weather and just to take a day or two off. Have a great trip!

[Kiteboarder]

Originally Posted by kevingy

I don't buy any of this. What is the difference between buying a house or a boat and having a mortgage on either. I'm renting right now. That's just throwing money into my landlord's pocket. I get no long term benefit from it. Eventually, I will have either the house or the boat paid for. I can't say that about a lease.

How will it affect my ability to save? It will enhance it. A mortgage payment on either a house or a boat will be less than what I'm paying in rent right now. What if I had to go a year without income? Regardless of whether it's a boat or a house or my current rental, I'm homeless. In the unlikely event I should get laid off, I don't forsee being out of work for that long. Even through this economy, there appear to be plenty of jobs available for programmers. My company has at least 25 openings for programmers right now. My company has grown and become more profitable through the recession.

I think most people live in fear. It looks like you may be one of them if you can't let go of 10% of your savings to follow a dream. I'd rather work every day of my life and live while I'm alive than do what to many of my family members have done, which is work and plan all their lives for retirement just to die before retirement or die shortly after retirement. I guess I'm living in fear too and that's what I'm afraid of. Whereas most people avoid risk to manage their fears, I'm taking on risk to manage my fears.

Wow! I'm kinda evesdropping here, while I learn a bit. I gotta give it to Kevingy. I'm totally with him on this one.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by Tempest245

Hi Grunzster,

16 days sounds more like it, providing you have decent weather and no malfunctions along the way. It's still a push. Personally, I build time into my schedules for bad weather and just to take a day or two off. Have a great trip!

Rough plan is, day by day to go outside if we can. Then if weather permits, maybe around Cape Canaveral, we'll go offshore until we hit Beuford or Hatteras and then go in to enjoy the scenery...of course depending on weather and what kind of time we're making at that point.

[off-the-grid]

And the answer is. About 20 days.

Made if from Indiantown to Cape May in 18 days. We left pretty late on the first day, and arrived pretty early on the last day. We made it outside only 1 day, no overnighters, 2-3 days where we stopped really early, and one day where we didn't move at all, due to the bridge being taken down in Norfolk. Also a few mornings where we waited an hour+ for bridge restrictions to end, and one where we waited a while for smoke from a fire to clear a little.

Yes we did pretty long days most of the way, but I completely disagree with the earlier post about it being a grueling pace. One person can easily relax, read, take a nap for a while, etc. when the other is driving.

I think we probably could have made it in 16 if we had left earlier on day 1, pushed a little later on a few of those early days, and if it wasn't for the bridge. Also if we planned a little better, and went through a few of those bridges before stopping for the night, to avoid waiting the next morning, we could have saved a few hours. Lastly getting the sails up a little more may have helped a little. We motored most of the way, except for a few hours on just a few days when we motor sailed, and the last day, when we finally turned the engine off.

We probably could have even made it in the 14 originally projected if we had made it outside in FL and gone back in at Beaufort.