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Old 01-03-2017, 11:20   #31
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Boat inspection etiquette.


3. Respect the owners property. This is not your boat and may never be. Leave the percussion equipment, moisture meters, and scopes, etc. at home.

4. Earn the right to perform a thorough inspection of
someone else's property. It's called a conditional offer.
.
I agree with everything you said (excellent advise!) except the two above.

If I make a conditional offer it takes my time and ties up my money. Before I spend my time and money I want to know HOW wet the decks are and "where that oily fluid is coming from". I want to know if the issues are big or little, and these non-invasive tools help me determine that in short order.

That said, the only big boat I've purchased was near new (and I was younger) so I don't think I even read the conditional offer. The survey and sea trial were both formalities.

Now, looking for a bigger and better boat, and having narrowed my wish list to a very few models (all of which are ~20 years old), I have a question you may be able to answer:

In the conditional offer, how does one specify quantity and quality? For example, of course there is some delamination/ water intrusion- but how to specify the amount and/or places where it would be acceptable? And the engine- "runs" isn't good enough, nor is "good working order". I suppose one could specify compression, temperature range, even an oil analysis of the exhaust. Any pointers?
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Old 01-03-2017, 12:42   #32
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

Wow! You have to earn the right to use inspection tools on the boat? If you are courteous shouldn't that be enough? A conditional offer is way premature imo.
Do you say, "If you let me use my hardware and it ok's your boat I'll make you an offer"?

If you show respect for the boat/owner and all equip is non-invasive, ie does not mark, I say you have the right. If they object to any electronic testing walk away.

I have owned a Protimeter aquant for 12yrs & are still learning about substrate baselines. I always have samples of like for calibration on hand.
Depending on ambient humidity and paint, the boat has to be on hard for days before a meaningful reading of outside hull moisture can be obtained. (Composite boats)
Pic of base reading on deck cutout 8mm epoxy+E glass/22mm balsa/6mmEpoxy+eglass
@ 14% which is about right for timber at this time of year indoors in my location.
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Old 02-03-2017, 23:48   #33
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Originally Posted by Tetepare View Post
I agree with everything you said (excellent advise!) except the two above.

If I make a conditional offer it takes my time and ties up my money. Before I spend my time and money I want to know HOW wet the decks are and "where that oily fluid is coming from". I want to know if the issues are big or little, and these non-invasive tools help me determine that in short order.

That said, the only big boat I've purchased was near new (and I was younger) so I don't think I even read the conditional offer. The survey and sea trial were both formalities.

Now, looking for a bigger and better boat, and having narrowed my wish list to a very few models (all of which are ~20 years old), I have a question you may be able to answer:

In the conditional offer, how does one specify quantity and quality? For example, of course there is some delamination/ water intrusion- but how to specify the amount and/or places where it would be acceptable? And the engine- "runs" isn't good enough, nor is "good working order". I suppose one could specify compression, temperature range, even an oil analysis of the exhaust. Any pointers?
RE: Conditional Offers

Whatever condition you put on the offer, just set the pass criteria to satisfactory, which is totally open to the purchasers interpretation, and can be determined at the final accumulation of all inspection data.

After all, that is what your post offer inspection is for, to verify the vessel is in satisfactory condition, that the offer was based on.

If you find a bunch of bad stuff that was not disclosed, and or was not already reflected in the asking price, then you either renegotiate the offer or walk.

RE: Lengthy Inspections

If one has no real intention to purchase, no matter what they find, they should not be banging around on somebodies boat for hours on end.

After a one hour inspection, if a buyer is serious about purchasing a vessel, they should have no problem putting in an offer and deposit.

They lose nothing if it doesn't prove out well on further inspection.

The lengthy first inspections by hoodlums with no money, who will never offer what the boat is worth because they have none, and are hoping to find something for nothing, only after they inspect the living $#%$ out of 200 or more boats, gets very old, very fast.

After a one hour inspection, if the boat seems good, it takes 10 minutes to put in a written conditional offer and write a cheque.

If one cant afford the 10% deposit, or the time to write the cheque, what the heck are they doing inspecting boats, (other than wasting every ones time).

Otherwise, 20 people spend 10 hours each inspecting the same boat, only to all 20 offer 50% of what the boat is really worth.

(Of course their cold dead corpses may now be buried in the back.) ;-)
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Old 03-03-2017, 00:38   #34
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Originally Posted by lateral View Post
Wow! You have to earn the right to use inspection tools on the boat? If you are courteous shouldn't that be enough? A conditional offer is way premature imo.
Do you say, "If you let me use my hardware and it ok's your boat I'll make you an offer"?

If you show respect for the boat/owner and all equip is non-invasive, ie does not mark, I say you have the right. If they object to any electronic testing walk away.
I'm with you, and yes, it's good to gently (politely) make it known that as previously arranged, you're there to do a preliminary inspection of her. Since it makes less than no sense to spend hundreds, or thousands to have a candidate boat hauled & surveyed, when in an hour or three you could have found things wrong with her that'll take her out of contention as your next boat.

Finding a broker, & or owner, who understand things like this, while at tiems rare, are huge when shopping seriously. Including their not minding you viewing the boat a couple of times throughout the buying process. Or so one hopes.

BTW, one other handy tool is a set of dial (vernier) calipers & depth gauge. It keeps those measurements made by eye honest. As well as confirming when something's grossly out of round, or stretched thin at some point along it's length.
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Old 03-03-2017, 21:52   #35
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

My experiences so far go like this...
.
Looked at boats on the hard 4 times now with the owners. After a cursory look on the outside and insides, only 1 moved up my list.... it's a 20' Santana with trailer. Fits my 'training boat' category.
Each time, I let the owners know I was still looking at boats.
I also let the others know I was not interested, but thanked them for their time. Didn't need to do any probing on them far as I was concerned, but I did get my hands everywhere I felt I needed.
.
Saw two potential liveaboards on the water... one early this week... the other yesterday... several hundred miles apart.
Declined on both... there are some really unpleasant boats out there.... nasty nasty nasty!
The local one... over the phone I got permission from the owner to go on deck to look around. Then scheduled with his friend (owner lives out of the area) to look inside. Once I went below... I didn't need to look any further at it.
.
The one yesterday up in Oregon... the owner provided me the combo to the lock on the boat and said to go in and take a look, but lock it up.
This was the second nastiest boat I've been on so far!
Again... once I went below... there was no question about turning around and walking away.
.
I've been to 7 different marinas now... 2 states... many many days/weeks, looking at a lot of boats.
I check in with the Harbor Master's office to let them know what the guy in the orange raincoat is doing walking around with a clipboard in hand, moving about the docks.
I be sure to ask them if they will pass on my contact info if I see a boat I am interested in but there's no for sale sign.
A few times, the folks in the office have mentioned a boat I should go look at because the owner was talking of selling but hadn't listed it on CL or somewhere else yet. Only permission to go by the slip and look.
I ALWAYS let people know I do not board anyone's vessel without the captain/owner's permission.
I also make contact with other people on any boats on the docks when I'm walking around.
I explain what I'm doing, that I've been to the Harbor Master's office, and (if is the case) have spoken to the owner of the boat I'm looking at.
.
I have told owners that I will be walking the decks, tapping, shining lights in places to include below decks if I am allowed below.
I've never had an owner balk at any of this so far... and all without any sort of contract, deposit, or pre-sale conditions.
.
Unless I'm putting a particular boat high upon my list of probables... I don't ask to run the engine, electronics, etc, especially if I'm on it by myself.
I will be returning to a local boat with the owner, and at my request, he said he'd run the engine. This one is currently at the top of my list and the marina will need me to move it to another slip at the far side. I want to know it's going to move under power. Starting the motor on a boat is no different than asking someone to start the engine of a car I am looking at.
Same with the electronics.
.
I am not interested in wasting my time going through all manner of inspection on boat I'm shaking my head in disbelief at... or one that upon visiting in person, I can tell it's not the one for me. No sense having myself or the owner go through more expenditure of energy and time than necessary.... in my opinion anyway
.
Oh... and the one at the top of my list... I will also be diving on to check out the bottom, keel, rudder, zincs, etc, since it's in the water currently.
No desire to dive marina waters on boats I'm not interested in at a level this one interests me at... I dove marinas in SoCal enough to dislike the exercise immensely!
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:17   #36
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Originally Posted by wsmac View Post
Once I went below... I didn't need to look any further at it.

The one yesterday up in Oregon... the owner provided me the combo to the lock on the boat and said to go in and take a look, but lock it up.
This was the second nastiest boat I've been on so far!
Again... once I went below... there was no question about turning around and walking away.
I agree with you in principle. BUT...you weren't specific about what turned you off of these boats.

I've been to see boats that are a terrible mess, absolutely disgusting, filthy, smelly and full of trash. But that doesn't mean it's a bad boat. Keeping a boat clean and tidy is work, and can be difficult, especially if the owner lives far away.

A bad boat is one with soft decks, blistered hull, damaged rig. Dirty???...all boats get dirty. Haven't you noticed that people are cleaning their boats ALL THE TIME. There's a reason for that.

I once drove several hours to see a disgusting, filthy boat. The owner had dropped his price several times. Each time, a new bunch of potential buyers would come, stick their head below, and walk away (as you did). The owner had moved to another city, and EVERYTHING that came with the boat was jammed below...bags of spare sails, boxes of spare parts, tools, dirty dishes, food containers...what a mess...There was barely space to stand below, and definitely no place to sit. The cushions were hardly visible due to the clutter. It was not possible to get into the vee, or even jam your head in for a peek.

I bought the boat. And yes, I got a great price.

Then I emptied the boat onto the dock. A ton of stuff went straight into the garbage (marina dumpster close by). Then I filled the back of my rented pickup truck. Even then, there was still a ton of junk below. But the bilges were dry, everything worked, the through hulls were good, the decks were solid, and the rig perfect. It was a diamond covered in crap, thats all. And those bags...there were jibs in great condition, spare main, boom tent, breeze booster, and one bag contained an avon redcrest...wow!!!! A massive amount of unneeded dishware, utensils and cutlery came home and mostly went straight into my kids sandbox...to their great pleasure and excitement! And yes, there was a ton of cleaning to be done. A few months later I actually had the boat trucked to my driveway and I spent countless hours aboard cleaning, fixing, making nice. It may sound awful, but my young kids thought it was the best "fort" ever, and were usually right there helping me (or at least pretending to help). The wife (now ex) would send snacks and sandwiches via a window of the house for us to picnic below, all cozy, dreaming of sailing days to come. And those sailing days did come. And the boat looked great. And I had a pride of ownership I cannot describe. And I had a ton of great gear (that I left mostly at home). And we had many great adventures.

So yes, I agree, nobody wants to buy a disgusting boat. Except me. Dirty is the easiest and cheapest thing to fix on a boat.

And when I was done with that boat, I did it again. And again. And I'm looking for the next one now.
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:34   #37
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

From Wallace Gouk, CF member “Boatpoker” ➥ Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey
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Old 04-03-2017, 14:07   #38
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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I agree with you in principle. BUT...you weren't specific about what turned you off of these boats...
Got it!
Totally agree with you and when an owner starts apologizing for the cleanliness of the boat... depending on other factors... I will sometimes tell them the boat can always be cleaned, what I'm more concerned about it structural issues. Same with appliances (electronics and other add-ons)... if they're onboard, not outdated, and working... could be a big plus... but not necessarily a deal-breaker if not.

The boats I described as nasty were ones that had major growth on them, mold issues inside that I could see & smell, plastic food tubs siliconed over deck openings, liberal use of packaging/duct tape to hold things to the deck/cockpit and elsewhere.

Some smells and levels of smell are a distraction but not necessarily a deal-breaker either.
There are ways to remove odors, clean up mold, etc
A pristine boat in my price range would probably be a really nice kayak...
Otherwise... I'm expecting some cleanup and fixingup to do.
.
Nice looking boat in the pics!
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Old 04-03-2017, 14:31   #39
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

Education is your best defense .... Moisture Meter Mythology
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Old 04-03-2017, 14:51   #40
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Education is your best defense .... Moisture Meter Mythology
Some of the observations in this article are not objective.
ie The "12%" error. The head on Aquant must be held with the transmitter
head and the end of device touching the material AT THE SAME ANGLE to the surface all the
time while taking the reading. (Not to vertical orientation) ALSO in the second pic he has his finger near/under the device whilst taking the reading. Try a reading on your finger & see what you get! Very sloppy & irrelevant as what you are trying to acertain is
the amount of variance from a dry control. Actual percentage moisture acurracy is not the prime object.
Of course you get different readings for different materials. Try carbon for instance!
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Old 04-03-2017, 15:05   #41
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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ie The "12%" error. The head on Aquant must be held with the transmitter
head and the end of device touching the material AT THE SAME ANGLE to the surface all the
time while taking the reading. (Not to vertical orientation) ALSO in the second pic he has his finger near/under the device whilst taking the reading. Try a reading on your finger & see what you get! Very sloppy & irrelevant as what you are trying to acertain is
the amount of variance from a dry control. Actual percentage moisture acurracy is not the prime object.
Of course you get different readings for different materials. Try carbon for instance!
Aquant manual says 25% from horizontal, meter in photo is not vertical as you state.

Finger is on side of meter not in sensing pad area altho' I agree it's not a great photo. The effect of different readings exhibited here is true of all meters tested.

"Dry control" is a bit of a misnomer in this application as every reading is relative only therefore calibration to a dry control panel is irrelevant as we are only looking for relative differences.

Actual percentage is not only NOT the prime object, it is quite simply impossible with these meters on composite materials.

A reading on carbon wil give you a very similar reading to copper i.e. very high
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Old 04-03-2017, 15:12   #42
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Education is your best defense .... Moisture Meter Mythology
Now I'm sure you have some experience here... but... from what I understand... the best defense in regards to boats... SPEND YOU MONEY ON THE LOTTERY INSTEAD!
.
Thanks for the link, I believe I've read that one already... been reading quite a bit, but at least I still remember how to read!
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Old 04-03-2017, 15:27   #43
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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Aquant manual says 25% from horizontal, meter in photo is not vertical as you state.

Finger is on side of meter not in sensing pad area altho' I agree it's not a great photo. The effect of different readings exhibited here is true of all meters tested.

"Dry control" is a bit of a misnomer in this application as every reading is relative only therefore calibration to a dry control panel is irrelevant as we are only looking for relative differences.

Actual percentage is not only NOT the prime object, it is quite simply impossible with these meters on composite materials.



A reading on carbon wil give you a very similar reading to copper i.e. very high
I don't see it as irrelevant, but I agree that variance is the prime objective.
I have core samples of my boat from all the thru-hulls cutouts etc and use them as a base line comparison, factoring in that they have been stored in my workshop as opposed afloat. It is nice to be able to use the meter adjacent to where the sample came from.
I don't use them for numerical calibration.

I think once you have established that your methodology with the meter gives you consistent results when uncovering suspect substrates, the tool becomes a valuable asset.
Mine has been in my kit for 12yrs in building inspection ind.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:48   #44
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

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I think once you have established that your methodology with the meter gives you consistent results when uncovering suspect substrates, the tool becomes a valuable asset.
Oak is oak, cedar is cedar, drywall is drywall and readings from house to house will be fairly consistent, however the composites in boats are wildly inconsistent as we have no idea of the laminate schedule or type of resin or chemical makeup of the various gelcoats and coatings. i.e. some gelcoats have metal compounds in them as do many marine paints to say nothing of embedded aluminum plates (sometimes in most curious places)hence my feeling (based on about 4,000 marine surveys) that from one boat to another there will be no consistency of "numbers" therefore each boat must be started from scratch with an educated guess.

Wow ! those are a couple of long sentences
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Old 06-03-2017, 10:57   #45
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Re: Boat Buyer's Arsenal of Inspection Equipment

Never disputed that there are MANY materials that will give high readings that are not moisture. That is meter usage 101.
If there are not patterns in the readings (read consistencies or inconsistencies) why bother with the meter at all?
Just break out your forked stick & charge the client double. .

Call it what you will, educated guessing works for me. Doesn't work so well for the client.
I won't be retiring my control samples anytime soon.
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