A Nor'easter is a "major storm" at Foremost?

[redneckrob]

My broker switched me to Foremost this year and I finally got around to carefully reading my documents. I'm in Maryland and the insurance is coastal/75 miles. I had foolishly assumed that the "Storm Deductible", which is of course higher than the standard deductible, applied only to named storms as I had seen in all my previous insurance. However on careful reading I found that it actually applies to any damage caused by a "Tropical Depression, Tropical Storm, Hurricane or Nor'easter". "Nor'easter" isn't defined in the policy and I'm not even sure how they can define that, it seems enormously broad as you could call nearly half the weather on any given day in the winter in MD a "Nor'easter". Anyway, just a word of advice to anyone with Foremost on the U.S. East Coast that your storm deductible is probably in force for much more of the year than you might have assumed, should they choose to litigate that clause.

[RaymondR]

Write them a letter and ask them to define the characteristics of a "Nor'easter". The words "frontal", with high wind speeds of short duration, or "revolving", with high winds of varying direction and intensity, come to mind.

The significance is that having a mooring or anchorage with protection from a predominately single direction would be fairly risk free whereas the proximity of the same protection in a storm of varying wind direction would present a hazard to the vessel.

[GordMay]

According to the National Weather Service (NWS), and NOAA, a Nor'easter is a storm along the East Coast (including New England and the Mid-Atlantic states) of North America, so called because the winds over the coastal area are typically from the northeast. These storms may occur at any time of year, but are most frequent and most violent between September and April.
More from NOAA ➥ https://scijinks.gov/noreaster/

That may be too broad a definition, to be enforceable.

[tkeithlu]

I don't know your reasons for switching to Foremost; there may be a considerable cost savings that makes it worthwhile. Mine with Markell says named storms only, and the cruising area is generous. I've also found it easy to get extensions on area whenever I wanted them.

Those definitions of nor'easter could include some really good sailing days.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

I don't know your reasons for switching to Foremost; there may be a considerable cost savings that makes it worthwhile. Mine with Markell says named storms only, and the cruising area is generous. I've also found it easy to get extensions on area whenever I wanted them.

Those definitions of nor'easter could include some really good sailing days.

Just blindly following my broker's advice and not reading the fine print until now. Poor decision making on my part and will probably switch now that I realize it, but just wanted to do a public service announcement to others to check their policy if they're with Foremost.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Mine with Markell says named storms only, and the cruising area is generous.
Those definitions of nor'easter could include some really good sailing days.

Seems like everyone is naming storms these days for more drama. Does it specify who is the naming body (NOAA?) or if it is named by the Weather Channel (weather terrorists), then is that one also?


Edit: did a quick search and some insurances define where they deem it to be a "named storm". Some say just US NWS, others just US Nat. Hurricane Center, some may say both then include NOAA.

[billknny]

This is appearing in many policies. The reason is that when “Hurricane” Sandy caused so many insurers to lose their shirts, it wasn’t a hurricane any longer, but a “major storm”.

[redneckrob]

So spent some quality time on the phone with Foremost and unsurprisingly am more concerned now then when I started. The agent I was talking to couldn't even pronounce Nor'easter, so clearly wasn't familiar with the concept. She went and talked to the underwriting team, who according to her said it included any time the NWS issued a warning or watch for a storm. Not sure if something was somewhat lost in conversion through the agent, but of course that would be even more concerning. Because there's no such thing as a "Nor'easter watch" but there are winter storm, blizzard, high wind and coastal flood watches issued in conjunction with Nor'easters but also issued in conjunction with all kinds of weather and covering a somewhat significant number of hours in the year in the Chesapeake. So either the "Nor'easter" term has no meaning or it encompasses a definition far broader than most of us would expect.

Regardless I spoke to my agent to switch to someone with a clearer named storm definition. If they can't define something like that clearly now when they're about to lose my business because of it, then the lack of definition surely won't come down in my (or any claimant's) favor when trying to settle a claim. I'm guessing this is just bureaucratic stupidity on their part, but not worth the potential hassle for me and I did my part to try to convince them that clear definitions are in everyone's best interest but clearly couldn't get high enough to talk to someone who cared and could do anything about it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

... So either the "Nor'easter" term has no meaning or it encompasses a definition far broader than most of us would expect...

Indeed.
According to the National Weather Service (NWS), and NOAA, a Nor'easter is a storm along the East Coast.
And a storm is any disturbed state of the atmosphere, especially affecting the Earth's surface, and strongly implying destructive and otherwise unpleasant weather. Storms range in scale from tornadoes and thunderstorms to tropical cyclones to synoptic-scale extratropical cyclones.

[Montanan]

Not specific to boat insurance coverage but similar language is used for homeowners insurance wherein there is a "wind deductible" . Always read the entire policy and compare to alternative policies BEFORE deciding to purchase. The devil is in the details and the only way to know is to read and ask lots and lots of questions and to research what the customary coverages and optional riders are. You aren't buying ice cream; you are paying to transfer Risks. You need to know what the Risks are and which are being transferred and which are NOT being transferred.

An example of wind related risks and deductibles associated with such risk transfers.

Reference: Blog of Gordon Atlantic Insurance.https://www.agordon.com/blog/bid/163...rm-deductibles



"You call the insurance company after a big nor'easter or hurricane, with a tree sitting on your house, and they tell you that you have a "wind deductible." What's that?

It's a separate deductible from the one that applies to everything else to lower the cost of storms to insurance companies in wind-prone regions. There are a few variations beyond just "wind," and we'll look at which are better (if your location limits your choices and have this provision).

When a storm hits, the distinction between Named Storm deductibles, Wind storm deductibles and Hurricane deductibles can be important. The distinction is particularly important if you live or own property in a coastal county in Massachusetts, such as Plymouth, Dukes, Barnstable, Bristol, Suffolk and Essex, because all are generally available and choosing the right one might make a difference in the cost to repair your home after a storm.

Here's how it works: these deductibles are applied separately for a higher dollar amount than your standard deductible, known as “all other perils” (AOP) deductibles. For example, if you have a $1,000 deductible for fire, theft and all other perils and you live on the coast, you may have a $2,000 or higher deductible for windstorm and hail losses.

More common than dollar amounts however, wind deductibles are often expressed as a percentage of the coverage amount on your home. For example, a 1% wind deductible on a $300,000 home would be $3,000 and a 2% wind deductible would be $6,000. A 5% wind deductible on a $700,000 home is $35,000!! Here in coastal Massachusetts counties, 1%, 2% and 5% wind deductibles are common if your property is within a mile of the coast.

These deductibles are part of an effort by the insurance industry to limit their storm losses by having homeowners share more of the repair costs when the wind blows. Informed property owners - that's you - can take steps to protect homes when especially vulnerable to wind damage. After all, if you have a 5% deductible on half a million dollar house, you’ve got 25,000 good reasons to consider storm shutters, a generator, the highest quality shingles, fewer trees in the yard, and other protections.

If you have a wind deductible it normally will appear right on the "declarations" (first) page of your homeowner’s insurance policy. Different insurance companies use different metrics for these specific peril deductibles. The three most common approaches are:

Windstorm deductibles (the broadest, meaning it will affect the most people)
Named Storm deductibles (common) and
Hurricane deductibles.

The broadest of these three, meaning where it will apply to the most consumer claims, is a Windstorm deductible. These deductibles apply whenever damage is caused by wind; these include not only hurricanes and other tropical storms but also winter nor'easters and summer thunderstorms. Any kind of wind associated damage will prompt this higher exposure to the owner.

The next category is Named Storm deductibles. To illustrate, remember the notorious “no-name" storm? Damage from that storm would not have been subject to a higher Named Storm deductible, but would have under a Wind deductible. The regular, smaller AOP deductible would have been used for any damage caused by the no-name storm under a Named Storm deductible. But damage from Hurricane Irene or Hurricane Sandy, or other named storms would have invoked the Wind and/or Named Storm deductible.

Finally, there are the most restrictive Hurricane deductibles. Hurricane Sandy is a good example of the distinction between Named Storm and Hurricane deductibles. When Sandy made land fall in New Jersey she had been downgraded from a Category I hurricane to a tropical storm. Thus, the lower AOP deductible applied to folks with a Hurricane deductible. Hurricane deductibles have become less common due to the potential for political interference after the fact, as was evident with Sandy. Some suggested that the downgrade of Hurricane Sandy was precisely announced to shield homeowners from the Hurricane deductible. Good for consumers with that one event, but insurance carriers quantify risk precisely, and after the fact interference prompted changes for the next event. Thus what were Hurricane deductibles have morphed into Named Storm deductibles in most coastal regions.

Many considerations should factor in your choice of insurance companies for selecting homeowners and other property insurance. But all else being equal, and given the option between Windstorm vs. Named Storm, choose Named Storm as it is more restrictive. Given the choice between Named Storm and Hurricane deductible, you should choose a Hurricane as it’s the least likely to be invoked. "

[duckpond49]

My father was a successful life insurance agent but one of his peeves was the actuaries that dictated the rates, rules and terms he had to work with.
I know the marine "shawnce" companies have been through a rough spell, but the current rate structure is insane.
I have never filed a claim on any of my boat coverage in my 30+ years of boat ownership. I keep my boat at my own dock on a protected canal in Eastern, NC. So far I have not incurred any damage resulting from direct hits from hurricanes Fran, Floyd, Irene, Isabel, Florence or Dorian.
My quoted rate this year is 200% over last year! I'm not comfortable operating w/o liability coverage with the "spill" and injury risks but the storm stuff is just over the top.

[roland stockham]

The definition of deregulation. Removing rules that ensure fair and equitable service to consumers and protect people from unscrupulous practices. In a deregulated market companies are free to hike charges to whatever they can get away with, put in small print that only a lawyer can reed, use those to get out of paying any claims (it says on page 376 that if you grandmothers name begins with a F we can halve you claim, didn't you read that bit?). US insurance looks like a con to me compared to other juristictions which do have effective financial services regulations

[slug]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

My broker switched me to Foremost this year and I finally got around to carefully reading my documents. I'm in Maryland and the insurance is coastal/75 miles. I had foolishly assumed that the "Storm Deductible", which is of course higher than the standard deductible, applied only to named storms as I had seen in all my previous insurance. However on careful reading I found that it actually applies to any damage caused by a "Tropical Depression, Tropical Storm, Hurricane or Nor'easter". "Nor'easter" isn't defined in the policy and I'm not even sure how they can define that, it seems enormously broad as you could call nearly half the weather on any given day in the winter in MD a "Nor'easter". Anyway, just a word of advice to anyone with Foremost on the U.S. East Coast that your storm deductible is probably in force for much more of the year than you might have assumed, should they choose to litigate that clause.

NE is an onshore wind that batters the cost with waves and flood tides

Destructive

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by slug

NE is an onshore wind that batters the cost with waves and flood tides

Destructive

Actually in the northern Chesapeake Bay, where both I and my boat live, Nor'easters cause unusually low tides as the wind blows the water down the narrow Chesapeake Bay away from us. But thanks, I guess, for demonstrating even more how there are those among us who are dead certain the term represents almost exactly the opposite of what it actually represents for the boat in question, just reinforcing that we shouldn't be using the term as a criteria in an insurance policy!

[RaymondR]

A location where the high winds associated with storms come from a fairly consistent direction has a much better profile for risk management than on subject to high wind speed rotating systems in that the wind directions are generally very unpredictable.