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FlightPlan · 15-01-2012, 06:18

DSDman, FWIW, unless something is severly wrong with the boat, it would be better to get some estimate (not necessarily formal) of the issues you would want the owner to address. Then discount your offer and get the work done under your ownership and supervision. Otherwise you might not get the leaky deck fixed properly. The owner is not interested in the boat any longer which will cause further and accelerated deterioration. Get a good surveyor to go through everything possible and catagorize the deficiencies as to importance like: requires immediate repair, needs attention, replace, etc. Put the list in front of the owner with your final offer allowing about 20% contingency in your favor.

To answer your first question, I think Osirissail in a little light on the expenses. Although he sounds like a man who does most of the work on the boat and merely tracks the material cost and some labor, and he has a relatively new boat. So I don't dispute his numbers. But realistically speaking, as an absentee owner myself, I find that the expense is around 8% to 10% of the cost of the boat. This includes fuel, insurance, slip fees, monthly bottom cleaning, weekly cleaning by local detailer, varnish program, systems flushing, registration fees, customs fees, to name a few off the top of my head. These number self adjust by boat length and age. My boat is 22 years old.

osirissail · 15-01-2012, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSDman

. . . So trying to get the current owner to absorb those cost is tough, they want nothing more to do with it. Winter is not helping either.

Which is a good bargaining opportunity to "low ball" the boat or at least calculate in the cost of "re-fitting/repairing" the surveyor found defects (plus the ones you found and had the surveyor include in his report) to arrive at a final price for purchasing the boat.

I was able to do that with a boat that lay unused for a dozen years - owner died and widow finally needed money and wanted the thing sold. Got it for 50 cents on the dollar. . .

DSDman · 15-01-2012, 07:53

Thank you all, good points made by all. The price as advertised is supposed to include all the known deficiencies... but this could start a whole different track on boat purchasing and current market deficiencies and devaluation and well, as we all know that horse has been beaten to death over and over. So still looking for solid numbers from folks who may have 60 ft or so boats on the chesapeake. a sampling of one is hard to draw conclusions from.

S/V Alchemy · 15-01-2012, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSDman

Since of am still firmly anchored to the good ol USA for next ten years or so my time on the boat will be much less, jobs tend to have that effect. But it gives me lots of time to sort the boat out and learn. I gotta believe my annual fixed cost will be something less...gulp! hopefully. (not including repairs.)

You may wish to consider the costs of occasional haulouts vs. actually leaving the boat unused and floating for long periods. "Sorting out" is easier on land, close to plugs and hoses, and minus electrolysis, I have found.

In other words, sail when you can really sail, and not just pay $10K/year for six long weekends.

Just an option to consider. Not many boat owners are that ruthless!

DSDman · 19-01-2012, 15:26

So what would you guys do? I have the choice of five sailboats. I've narrowed it down to two. both same build, same year, if one was 80 k, needs work, 30 year old and the other was in a little better shape but still 30 years old but almost twice the money which would you buy? Both are solid boats, some things I'm thinking about is the cheaper boat I can buy with no financing the other would require a loan. even though the more expensive boat is in better shape I still will have to go through the major systems. But I might get more immediate use out of it. I'm torn.

osirissail · 19-01-2012, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSDman

So what would you guys do? I have the choice of five sailboats. I've narrowed it down to two. both same build, same year, if one was 80 k, needs work, 30 year old and the other was in a little better shape but still 30 years old but almost twice the money which would you buy? . . .

Only it your statement "same build" means same manufacturer can the question be answered.
- - But the answer lies in doing the spreadsheets of what needs to be fixed versus selling price. (Not asking price, selling price). When you add up the cost of acquisition and the cost of re-fit it will become very clear which is the better deal. As they say, the devil is in the details. . . and doing the work to get the answers.

malbert73 · 19-01-2012, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSDman

So what would you guys do? I have the choice of five sailboats. I've narrowed it down to two. both same build, same year, if one was 80 k, needs work, 30 year old and the other was in a little better shape but still 30 years old but almost twice the money which would you buy? Both are solid boats, some things I'm thinking about is the cheaper boat I can buy with no financing the other would require a loan. even though the more expensive boat is in better shape I still will have to go through the major systems. But I might get more immediate use out of it. I'm torn.

If you want my opinion, any 60 foot sailboat you can buy for 80K will be a money pit. Even the 160 K one will cost you. That's a lot of boat to try to do on a budget, especially if you're not crossing oceans. If you can afford only 80 K without financing I'd look significantly smaller.

My 33 footer can handle everything the bay can dish out and the view from the cockpit is great. A 40 footer would do it and have extra comfort but cost me over twice per year in maintenance, not to mention 2-3 x more to get in.
60 footer? Yikes.

What kind of boat?

DSDman · 19-01-2012, 21:51

yes it is the very same make and model. we are working on the spreadsheets now. I am hesitant to post the make as I have not bought it yet and from reading previous rants about boats being "stolen" from prospective buyers because they posted here I guess I had better not tell, even though I really want too. Why 60 ft. Large family... I could get a smaller more affordable boat but I would be on it alone. So the best option for me to realize the goal of sailboat ownership is to take advantage of this depressed economy and terrible boat market to get a slightly disstressed large boat as a family project and long term vacation spot. being able to afford to keep is another question which brings me back to the original reason for this thread. l hear about how much more expensive it is to own a larger boat but I don't have solid numbers. or the numbers I'm getting don't seem to bad for me.

xymotic · 19-01-2012, 22:25

I have to agree though, 80k for a 60 seems highly suspicious. OTOH the economy sucks, so it is certainly possible that the boats are equal except for $$$ Only you can decide that. But man I'd pick the surveyor very carefully!

Good luck!

osirissail · 20-01-2012, 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSDman

yes it is the very same make and model. . . . Why 60 ft. Large family... I could get a smaller more affordable boat but I would be on it alone. . .

With that additional information I would suggest that my expenses already posted are way too low. They are for a single hander and more recently for only 2 people on board. So add about 50% or double them. A large family is going to cost a lot more in maintenance and replacement of systems that will break when a lot more people are using and fiddling with them.

Boat hulls and structure may be tough enough to take what the ocean can throw out them, but the interior systems are quite delicate, especially in a 3 decade old boat. The care and caution you may use in operating the systems is not going to be the case when "other" people use the systems. Kind a like: commercial or "hotel" rated equipment versus home stuff.

Plus with young'uns on board you are going to have to increase the safety equipment and plan for just about anything to happen. Pumps will fail quicker, appliances fail or flame, even furniture and fixtures will get abused, parts twisted off accidentally, circuits overloaded and hatches and doorways wrenched or twisted. And everything on a boat is normally almost twice the price of a similar thing used in a home/house.

And if you scream and scold about abusing the boat and/or breaking things, it won't be long before you are a single-hander - - and then you don't need that large a boat and can get a better deal on something half that size.

malbert73 · 20-01-2012, 10:06

Are these the boats?

A little detective work on yachtworld narrows it down (identical boats, price difference, 30 years old....) to pretty much has to be these:

1981 Nautical Development Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1981 Nautical Development Corp. Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

These look like nice, heavily built boats. They also look like they will cost you a ton in upkeep and refit. The cheaper one's decks look bad- but hopefully just cosmetic otherwise I'd run away....
Just an engine replacement if needed at that size must be 20-30K I imagine.

And don't worry, I'm not in the market for another boat.

malbert73 · 20-01-2012, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by malbert73

Are these the boats?

A little detective work on yachtworld narrows it down (identical boats, price difference, 30 years old....) to pretty much has to be these:

1981 Nautical Development Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1981 Nautical Development Corp. Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

These look like nice, heavily built boats. They also look like they will cost you a ton in upkeep and refit. The cheaper one's decks look bad- but hopefully just cosmetic otherwise I'd run away....
Just an engine replacement if needed at that size must be 20-30K I imagine.

And don't worry, I'm not in the market for another boat.

And if these are them, I'd go for the more expensive one if only because of the low hours diesel in it. The other one doesn't list hours on engine that I could see, which usually means high hours- otherwise would be listed. That could account for 30K difference.

Sails for that size boat will be another 15K-20K min I imagine, so I would examine them carefully and see if there is a big difference.

Rigging for those boats would cost probably 10K + to replace

Painting hull and deck is monumental, but doable as DIY (I did solo in one spring on my 33 footer). Dealing with soggy/soft core on the other hand is not on that size boat unless you need a nonpaying full time job for 2 years.