Is Coppercoat anti foul worth it?

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Very interesting MF.. What are these two pictures off? Like, what are they for?

A dynaplate is one alternative for SSB grounding. It is composed of tens of thousands of tiny bronze spheres closely bonded together, such that the water passes through them, and provides a sevearl square meter surface area for grounding, in only a few square centimeters real estate. I have long wondered whether the coppercoat itself would enhance that grounding.

In any case the other is a large copper lattice I had made in Scotland around 7 years ago, by a lightning protection company. The fat cable you see coming off it ends in a very large alligator clip which is clipped to the cap shroud if I am in a stormy anchorage or similar, with the lattice hung off in the water beside the boat. The idea is that it will encourage the strike to avoid the main hull and other equipment.

[sharpey]

Can't have a gun where I live... and I have a bruce anchor...

But I do have an opinion (formed from experience) on coppercoat (as have mentioned before, but hey...)

Our boat is in a very high fouling area. Any boat that doesn't have an ablative paint on needs diving on every two weeks to keep the growth in check. Heck, even the ablative painted boats need a wipe down every fortnight...

All locally available Hempel, Jotun, and International paints seem to last for at most 18 months where I am...

I have had coppercoat on for 2 years, and I clean the hull myself every 2 weeks ... All I get is a bit of slime and some lightly attached barnacles... Non treated areas somtimes have little growth, and other times are coated 1 cm thick in barnacles (yes, after 2 weeks)... The amount of fouling on non coated parts varies with the season... ( a pattern that changes multiple times through the year)...

From my ongoing study I can conclude (based on my experience and that of the guys who clean other peoples boats (both with normal AF and coppercoat) that Coppercoat is about as good as the rest of the paints here when they are brand new... The trick is that it just lasts longer...

Do note, once again, that Changi in Singapore is notorious for fouling... Hempel and Jotun pay our club good money to test their paints here!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Got an e-mail today from Jim Edwards of CopperCoat USA, saying that if I provide a credit card to cover shipping, test panels are available. So I gave the necessary info and asked for two panels. Assuming I get them, I will perform an ongoing side-by-side test here in the Estuary, where one panel gets regular (I'm thinking quarterly) cleanings and the other will be a control. I will, of course, post pix here as the test progresses.

I'd suggest two more panels, paint them with whatever paint you think superior so that you have a coppercoat / paint comparison.
But if I understand the claim, it's a test that gonna take years to get conclusive results.

[Salty Mike]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

In any case the other is a large copper lattice I had made in Scotland around 7 years ago, by a lightning protection company. The fat cable you see coming off it ends in a very large alligator clip which is clipped to the cap shroud if I am in a stormy anchorage or similar, with the lattice hung off in the water beside the boat. The idea is that it will encourage the strike to avoid the main hull and other equipment.

MR. Flugga,

How far do you let the large copper lattice lightening protection thingy hang off the side or should I say at what depth?
I'm guessing just below your keel but would like to know.
I'm also guessing it is about 2' square?
And wondering if a cable to the anchor chain might be effective as well?

Not trying to hijack but if I don't ask now I'll see a squirrel and forget to.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Salty Mike

MR. Flugga,

How far do you let the large copper lattice lightening protection thingy hang off the side or should I say at what depth?
I'm guessing just below your keel but would like to know.
I'm also guessing it is about 2' square?
And wondering if a cable to the anchor chain might be effective as well?

Not trying to hijack but if I don't ask now I'll see a squirrel and forget to.

Just until it is covered by the water. It is a grounding/earth plate. Saltwater is earth.

[jacaranda]

I coppercoated 6 years ago and the boat has been in the water since in cold and warmish waters. It has performed excellently and is ready to go after a wash each season. However I made a major (and minor) error in not coating the iron keel and bringing the coppercoat well above the waterline. . I was convinced by the yard that the keel rust would leach thru. Now I know that if prepared correctly by blasting, priming and epoxying before copper coating the leaching will not occur

Brendan

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Now, dont go jumping on me for asking why would you clean it quarterly, or is that what you recommnd with yachts in your area?

Quarterly cleanings are common in the Bay Area, even if they are not the recommended frequency (at least not by me.) I find that a 2-month cycle is the way to go. But CopperCoat is not paint and I doubt that anybody here who claims to be getting good results with it (regardless of where they are located on the globe) is cleaning it every two months.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by lateral

Hmmm, well done. Looking forward to another real time test!
And, a panel or two of other types maybe?

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'd suggest two more panels, paint them with whatever paint you think superior so that you have a coppercoat / paint comparison.

I don't know that I'm interested enough to go to the trouble and expense of coating panels to test other products. The question isn't whether or not other products are effective- we know they are. The question is whether CopperCoat is effective, at least here in the Bay Area, a region that has what I consider to be moderate to high fouling conditions.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

But if I understand the claim, it's a test that gonna take years to get conclusive results.

It won't take years. It won't be overnight, but it won't take years. If CopperCoat is not an effective anti fouling solution for the Bay Area, its shortcomings will be apparent relatively quickly.

[a64pilot]

Back to the if I understand the claims, it is not as effective when new as new ablative paint, but at about a year, they are equally effective? From that point on Copper Coat maintains it's effectiveness, but normal paint has leeched out and become less effective over time requiring repainting on average every other year, but Copper Coat will go for years?

I'd have a panel of regular bottom paint as something to compare to, sort of a control.

I know Copper in metal form doesn't work, there are just too many Copper Clad boats out there, and the person that owns the Dutch Barge that posts here has stated that he gets growth on his copper clad rudder, and it's easily tested, just hang a piece of copper pipe in the water

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Back to the if I understand the claims, it is not as effective when new as new ablative paint, but at about a year, they are equally effective? From that point on Copper Coat maintains it's effectiveness, but normal paint has leeched out and become less effective over time requiring repainting on average every other year, but Copper Coat will go for years?

I'd have a panel of regular bottom paint as something to compare to, sort of a control.

I do not believe you can make generaizations like that. What ablatives are you talking about? They do not all have equal performance characteristics.
Hard paints are the same. Some are formulated to retard aggressive fouling, some are not. And where does it say that CopperCoat is equal in performance to year old anything?

Conventional anti fouling paints do have a spiked copper leach rate (and therefore maximum performance) for the first 90 days or so after splashing. Then the leach rate drops down and remains fairly constant until most of the copper is depleted. I assume this is not the case with CopperCoat. And again, the question is not how CopperCoat performs compared to other types of anti fouling products, but whether it performs well at all. It will be easy to tell. But maybe I will try to put together a Trinidad panel as well. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

I do not believe you can make generaizations like that. What ablatives are you talking about? They do not all have equal performance characteristics.
Hard paints are the same. Some are formulated to retard aggressive fouling, some are not. And where does it say that CopperCoat is equal in performance to year old anything?

Conventional anti fouling paints do have a spiked copper leach rate (and therefore maximum performance) for the first 90 days or so after splashing. Then the leach rate drops down and remains fairly constant until most of the copper is depleted. I assume this is not the case with CopperCoat. And again, the question is not how CopperCoat performs compared to other types of anti fouling products, but whether it performs well at all. It will be easy to tell. But maybe I will try to put together a Trinidad panel as well. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison.

I for one appreciate you spending time on this as choosing product for your
boat is a dilemma and time consuming.
I guess you see different types of AF on a daily basis and varying levels of effectiveness, & hence you have a wealth of experience to draw from. I noted your skepticism on the effectiveness of cu/epoxy wayback and almost gave it away. Thankyou.

Having put the stuff on and subsequent "burnishing" I realized there are a lot of ways to make it ineffective in the application. Maybe that applies to other types as well? Along with density of the living organic soup seeking to colonize.
My daughter has isolated frequencies of sound that metamorphosize juvenile larvae and get them to settle. Not simple to do the opposite.

Surprisingly enough, the copper ( 300 mesh) epoxy does not conduct electricity.
I haven't megger'd it yet.

[Ewan Clark]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

But CopperCoat is not paint and I doubt that anybody here who claims to be getting good results with it (regardless of where they are located on the globe) is cleaning it every two months.

You are quite right to doubt this. The vast majority of the 60,000 or so users of Coppercoat clean their boats far less frequently than this, just as you'd expect. For example, in the cooler waters of northern Europe, an annual clean is the norm. But naturally, in very high fouling locations, such as Singapore as mentioned by an earlier contributor to this thread, more frequent cleaning is necessary.

As we always say, fouling varies from place to place and year to year, but as a general guide to cleaning Coppercoat, it is normally necessary at the same frequency as would be the case if you were using a good quality traditional anti-foul paint. So, if in your chosen boat location you usually clean twice year with normal paint, expect to have to continue with this cleaning frequency with Coppercoat.

The difference with Coppercoat is simply that it lasts for a very long time, eliminating the need to lift and repaint every year or two. So it doesn't stop you having to clean the boat, it just stops you having to go to the time, trouble and expense of having to lift and repaint it so often.

Finally, and as ever, thank you to all the Coppercoat users that have contributed to this thread. It's always interesting to hear your stories from all parts of the globe.

[Ewan Clark]

Originally Posted by SJFK

Hi
Can I ask you all what you think about Coppercoat anti foul for long term cruising around some fairly isolated areas.

In response to the original question, you may be interested to learn that Sir Robin Knox-Johnston has recently confirmed that the Clipper Round-the-World race fleet is to be treated with Coppercoat. When these boats get back to the UK later this summer they will be treated one by one.

In fact we are currently treating the previous fleet of 68ft Clipper boats - the ones currently used for training and corporate events.

Sir Robin is also in the process of preparing "Suhaili" for Coppercoat. This is the boat in which he made his record breaking circumnavigation, and is currently being restored.

When cruising long term and to remote places, Coppercoat is ideal as you do not have to worry about where or when you can be lifted, or what paint will be available in that location. Instead, all you have to do from time to time is dive under the boat and give it a scrub. This explains why Coppercoat is so regularly chosen by owners of blue-water cruisers such as Oyster, Discovery, Amel, Island Packet and so on.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Ewan Clark

You are quite right to doubt this. The vast majority of the 60,000 or so users of Coppercoat clean their boats far less frequently than this, just as you'd expect.

Yes, I suspect that most of those who report good anti fouling performance with Coppercoat are able do so because they use the product in regions where fouling is very light and therefore in-water hull cleaning is infrequent or non-existent. Here in California, fouling conditions are such that boat bottoms are cleaned typically 6-15 times a year, depending on location. My long held position (based on actual, real world, hands-on experience cleaning boat bottoms with Coppercoat) is that the product does not provide adequate anti fouling performance in these conditions. Hence, test panels and photographic proof of the reality, something that inexplicably has never been done before (or at least never been made public.)

Originally Posted by Ewan Clark

The difference with Coppercoat is simply that it lasts for a very long time, eliminating the need to lift and repaint every year or two.

And that's another thing- here in California, when using a properly applied and maintained, high quality copper-based anti fouling paint, we get 3-4 years out between haulouts. Why would anybody (not forced to do so by severe winter weather) haul and repaint repaint more frequently than that?

[Ewan Clark]

Indeed, it stands to reason that boats kept in low fouling areas require less cleaning than those in high fouling areas. This is true no matter what anti-foul is used. And as stated previously, the general rule regarding the cleaning of Coppercoat is that you should expect to do it approximately as often as would be the case of a good quality conventional anti-foul paint. So if the boats in California are cleaned 6 to 15 times a year when using normal anti-foul, it would be reasonable to expect the cleaning program to be similar for Coppercoat.

That said, fouling rates in California are generally a little lower than places such as (for example) Singapore or Recife (Brazil) or parts of the West Indies. Luckily the cooler waters of SF don't sustain some of the marine life found in these warmer locations. It probably helps to explain why we've all seen people on this forum and others comment on their treatments working perfectly well in SF, requiring no more cleaning than would be deemed normal.

Of course, the vast majority of readers of this forum will never have the opportunity to take their boats to SF Bay, so when posting up reviews on the website or facebook we try to select actual and real world comments from users all from literally all over the World. Coppercoat was applied to boats in over 80 different countries last year alone, so the feedback is indeed from a very wide field. And as the total number of users runs to many tens of thousands, as you can imagine, we certainly receive a lot of feedback!!!!